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Terrible idea. The average chode worships a messed up version of the dead kings. The Astrals are old and forgotten. There's a good reason why the astrals speak of the kings with spite and derision. Bahamut does not recognize any king that is not himself or the king of light, Leviathan straight up tells you to sod off with your king BS.
I'm curious if Episode Ardyn will have sidequests of any sort within Insomnia like how Prompto had some optional stuff once you got out of the lab and Ignis had the district control stuff or maybe if it'll just give us a bit of a breather to take it all in before shit hits the fan with Ifrit scorching the streets. It seems like shit doesn't pop off in Insomnia until Ardyn gets to the town square so I'm hoping maybe we get to walk around and just take in the sights before we initiate the actual assault on the city cuz it looks really nice and it would be a damn shame if we can't just admire it for a bit..
There is a day and night cycle like in Prompto and Ignis' DLC Episodes, as well as the Insomnia mini- map looking like the main game world-style. But who really knows for sure, but we can roam the rooftops, though. Alao, we got to explore a small, yet, good portion of Altissia in Episode: Ignis despite having no side-quests other than documents and taking back districts, so we could have some form of exploration, but we'll see, but I would be fine even if there was little to no exploration, for me, as I'm more for the story and Ardyn as well as playing as him.
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Lord_Ham_Mork
So you view the ending of XV being the antithesis of nearly the entire series as a good thing? It's clear the developers didn't as after the fact they probably became aware of it and wanted to change it. Moreover, one could argue it's more about obedience than anything. Everything Noctis does is because he's told to do it. Not because he's actively choosing it or wants it. Episode Noctis would've given Noctis (and the player) some agency in order to choose whether or not the Lucii were correct. It also aligns itself more with the past titles with the Humanist point of view that man should decide for himself his own destiny. Not be dedicated to by outer, abstract forces and existences.
The whole point of FFXV is Noctis starting out childish and selfish and not wanting to do what he's told, but through the maturity he's gained along his journey accepting that this is the path he wishes to walk in order to free his people and the world from darkness. Sure it was prophesied and expected of him but Noctis had to come to the decision to sacrifice himself on his own. I think there's still power in that.
...yes? I mean, the game did start off as Versus XIII, which was specifically designed as a contrast to both FFXIII and the series as a whole. It's sort of inevitable that letting go of the reins of a project like that would result in the project being pulled in a more comfortable direction for the development staff, but that doesn't mean that would have been a good thing.
Besides, online games aside (I know practically nothing of XI or XIV), FF's secular humanist streak hasn't served it well since FFX -- almost two decades ago, at this point. FFXII's take was weird, since the gods whose plans you ruined stopped mattering and you ended up fighting the god who betrayed them instead. FFXIII's take leaned heavily on deus ex machina to avoid allowing the heroes to suffer consequences for their disobedience. And the secular humanist streak basically didn't exist before FFX, with the classic FF structure featuring Warriors of Light who were chosen by a Crystal as the heroes destined to save the world, and the FFVI-IX structure focusing primarily on the heroes' internal struggles.
Besides, online games aside (I know practically nothing of XI or XIV), FF's secular humanist streak hasn't served it well since FFX -- almost two decades ago, at this point. FFXII's take was weird, since the gods whose plans you ruined stopped mattering and you ended up fighting the god who betrayed them instead. FFXIII's take leaned heavily on deus ex machina to avoid allowing the heroes to suffer consequences for their disobedience. And the secular humanist streak basically didn't exist before FFX, with the classic FF structure featuring Warriors of Light who were chosen by a Crystal as the heroes destined to save the world, and the FFVI-IX structure focusing primarily on the heroes' internal struggles.
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Lord_Ham_Mork and Jenova
Interesting. I do not disagree with your viewpoints for the most part. I do prefer the existing ending as is. It's the ending the Noctis deserves and earns in a sense. However, I can understand the appeal of an alternative ending that goes in a different thematic direction. Said alternative ending does not negate other existing ending(s) either. It's merely offering the player agency within the game experience instead of dragging them along. Which I think is a powerful thing to offer to the players. (Suikoden offering this makes it near the top of my JRPG list) Making the strong resistance kind of a headscratcher in hindsight. As well, it wouldn't necessarily dismiss the sacrificial part of its narrative or result in a consequence free resolution. Had Noctis been allowed to save Ardyn, he potentially would've had to face and eliminate the Astrals and the Lucii. Especially the latter if he sided with Ardyn. Meaning Noctis might've had to kill his own father. Losing him a second time. Even further sacrifices may of had to been done in addition. It was clear from the beginning that the starscourge would not be eliminated without a major sacrifice. The episode likely would have allowed Noctis (and the player) to choose what those sacrifices would've been a la the ending of Fullmetal Alchemist. Granted, we'll never really know how it was meant to pan out until the novel is released. I just have my suspicions that it will not result in the happy-go lucky ending people assumed it would be that had them recoiling at the thought nor was it the intent of the dev team despite the artwork released. Which after Versus XIII and that hellish dev cycle, we would learn that conceptual art doesn't reflect the final product at the end of the day in most cases.
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Lord_Ham_Mork
you are assuming all those forces are evil and unworthy of obedience.
mindless rebellion for the sake of it is not virtuous, only if it has a good reason.
The ending being an antithesis for the whole series is a good thing to me, it makes the game stands out.
Ep Noctis happy ending was trying to cater to the "i love the characters soooo muuuch, they didnt deserve it
" crowd
Noctis already made his choice, to honor his lineage and the sacrifice of his loved ones, like many kings in reality have done... accepting the gods power was ok because they were actually in the same team imo
mindless rebellion for the sake of it is not virtuous, only if it has a good reason.
The ending being an antithesis for the whole series is a good thing to me, it makes the game stands out.
Ep Noctis happy ending was trying to cater to the "i love the characters soooo muuuch, they didnt deserve it
" crowdNoctis already made his choice, to honor his lineage and the sacrifice of his loved ones, like many kings in reality have done... accepting the gods power was ok because they were actually in the same team imo
It seems worth pointing out that Tabata was hinting about a "super happy ending" in the lead-up to the Dawn of the Future announcement. In combination with the concept art, it always seemed pretty obvious me that the point was to give as many people a happy ending as possible.
In any case, the problem with expanding the player's agency is that the fact that human agency is limited is thematically critical to OG FFXV. Noct's development is all about learning to accept the world for what it is, so an alternate route where it's possible to change the parameters would undercut that.
In any case, the problem with expanding the player's agency is that the fact that human agency is limited is thematically critical to OG FFXV. Noct's development is all about learning to accept the world for what it is, so an alternate route where it's possible to change the parameters would undercut that.
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Lord_Ham_Mork and Storm
as crazy as it sounds, that would explain their ability to conjure weapons like Bahamut and Ardyns ability to heal the scourge.
if im not mistaken it was implied that humans were made in the image of the Astrals or something like that.
its not uncommon to find stories about gods sleeping with humans in mythologies, that would make Somnus and Ardyn like semi-gods.
either way Bahamut (which was depicted in a much humanoid form before) has a strong connection to the Lucis family, cant wait to discover the real reason.
if im not mistaken it was implied that humans were made in the image of the Astrals or something like that.
its not uncommon to find stories about gods sleeping with humans in mythologies, that would make Somnus and Ardyn like semi-gods.
either way Bahamut (which was depicted in a much humanoid form before) has a strong connection to the Lucis family, cant wait to discover the real reason.
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"FINAL FANTASY XV EPISODE ARDYN" Due to the decision on the delivery date, we have released a special site.
http://www.jp.square-enix.com/ff15/dlc/epa/
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Lord_Ham_Mork
Here a little part translated about the crazy theory, that is so absurd that it could also make sense.
ps. sorry for the bad english
*grabs popcorn*
ps. sorry for the bad english
The power, typical of the Lucis Caelum lineage, was not obtained through the Crystal, but is generally handed down from father to son, and the legacy of this gift has been achieved thanks to one of the two "candidates", in this case, thanks to Somnus, and we know that.
In short, two brothers with divine power, not yet chosen by the crystal, two brothers who decided to exploit this power to fight the scourge, these powers have been donated by the Gods (anime prologue confirmed that)
But only one could actually become a King...
Ardyn was absolutely unable to play this role, despite his immense benevolence and compassion shown for his people, he was brutally rejected by the Crystal because impure, Somnus although his ways can be considered "bloody" and in some ways ruthless, was the only one truly worthy and more akin to the figure of the King.
Probably what I will write now, you won't like it, but let's be a little more realistic: Ardyn in those conditions was absolutely not able to ascend the throne, and if by chance the Crystal had not rejected it, he would not last as a King, before or then it would collapse and he probably would unleash chaos.
Somnus is the perfect King, because the REAL KING and therefore not so beautiful and good that is proposed to us in fairy tales, must be true to his duty, a man capable of put aside feelings and emotions to put the kingdom and its future first, because a king must also be able to get his hands dirty to guarantee prosperity to his people, the kingdom comes before everything and Ardyn would have put in danger, do not look at Somnus like a jealous asshole, well maybe a little asshole was, but for the kingdom and certainly not for jealousy.
Anyway, Bahamut seems to be particularly "attached" to the Lucis family, and this deep bond is also witnessed by Kinglsglaive symbol.
You have probably noticed all this similarity in the fighting style between Bahamut and the Lucis Caelum.
It seems that this power has been offered from Bahamut in his image and likeness, and Somnus for attitude and design can also be considered extremely similar to his figure.
So... Somnus and Ardyn are sons of Bahamut.
And what about the history of the Izunia?
We know that Ardyn was the original first-born of the Izunia family, it is possible that this family was composed of a messenger, just like Gentiana, and this Izunia (let's call him like this for convenience) was just Bahamut in the role of messenger.
But with Ardyn something inevitably went wrong ...
In short, two brothers with divine power, not yet chosen by the crystal, two brothers who decided to exploit this power to fight the scourge, these powers have been donated by the Gods (anime prologue confirmed that)
But only one could actually become a King...
Ardyn was absolutely unable to play this role, despite his immense benevolence and compassion shown for his people, he was brutally rejected by the Crystal because impure, Somnus although his ways can be considered "bloody" and in some ways ruthless, was the only one truly worthy and more akin to the figure of the King.
Probably what I will write now, you won't like it, but let's be a little more realistic: Ardyn in those conditions was absolutely not able to ascend the throne, and if by chance the Crystal had not rejected it, he would not last as a King, before or then it would collapse and he probably would unleash chaos.
Somnus is the perfect King, because the REAL KING and therefore not so beautiful and good that is proposed to us in fairy tales, must be true to his duty, a man capable of put aside feelings and emotions to put the kingdom and its future first, because a king must also be able to get his hands dirty to guarantee prosperity to his people, the kingdom comes before everything and Ardyn would have put in danger, do not look at Somnus like a jealous asshole, well maybe a little asshole was, but for the kingdom and certainly not for jealousy.
Anyway, Bahamut seems to be particularly "attached" to the Lucis family, and this deep bond is also witnessed by Kinglsglaive symbol.
You have probably noticed all this similarity in the fighting style between Bahamut and the Lucis Caelum.
It seems that this power has been offered from Bahamut in his image and likeness, and Somnus for attitude and design can also be considered extremely similar to his figure.
So... Somnus and Ardyn are sons of Bahamut.
And what about the history of the Izunia?
We know that Ardyn was the original first-born of the Izunia family, it is possible that this family was composed of a messenger, just like Gentiana, and this Izunia (let's call him like this for convenience) was just Bahamut in the role of messenger.
But with Ardyn something inevitably went wrong ...
*grabs popcorn*
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Lord_Ham_Mork and Storm
So, I ran into some speculation about the destiny of the Lucis Caelum being more punishment than blessing and... that actually seems like a pretty compelling idea.
For one thing, Bahamut giving characters powers so they can redeem themselves is a known dynamic. The player Glaives in Comrades were all revived and granted power by Bahamut as a means by which they would be forced to atone for their betrayal.
For another, I don't remember seeing the Ring of the Lucii in Episode Ardyn Prologue. Ardyn doesn't have it, Somnus doesn't have it, and it doesn't look like Aera had it to give to either of them. It's just not there.
Here's what I'm thinking:
Somnus and Ardyn are both given powers by Bahamut and told to use them to deal with the Scourge. These powers are meant to test them to determine who is more worthy to use the Crystal to eliminate the Scourge. Ardyn is compassionate and self-sacrificial; Somnus is aggressive and efficient.
If Bahamut was looking for someone like Noct to give his life for his people, Ardyn is the obvious choice. The problem is, Ardyn is infected and Somnus doesn't work well as a backup plan because his heart is clearly impure.
Somnus, figuring that the Astrals have no choice in the matter thanks to Ardyn's corruption, moves to remove Ardyn from the equation entirely. But, unless Bahamut told Aera that he was to be king in Ardyn's stead (which didn't seem to have happened, giving Aera's shock when he declared himself king), doing so would have been a massive act of presumption on his part, which ought to have been punished severely by the Astrals.
I initially figured that the lack of consequences must have meant that the Astrals were okay with Somnus' plan. But what if the consequences were simply different from what we expected? Perhaps Bahamut allowed Somnus to ascend the throne not because Somnus made the right choice, but because it was the most effective way to make House Caelum atone for its sins.
In this interpretation, the Ring of the Lucii would be as much a curse as it is a blessing. Its downsides wouldn't simply exist because of the amount of power it commands, but because it's meant to force House Caelum to learn the virtue of self-sacrifice. Somnus and twelve of his descendants will be required to keep watch until the Chosen King, a true innocent, appears and makes the sacrifice that Ardyn was meant to make two millennia before.
That would actually be entirely in-character for Bahamut. And, if Ardyn found out about it, it could give him even more reason to try to sabotage the whole thing.
EDIT: One more thought: if the point is that Somnus doesn't give a fig what the Astrals think, that could also explain his villain act. The point of his arrogant demeanor would be to demonstrate his flagrant disregard for the Astrals and show the people that it really didn't matter what decision they made. Of course, Bahamut is an active force in the world, so thumbing one's nose at him might not be the best idea...
For one thing, Bahamut giving characters powers so they can redeem themselves is a known dynamic. The player Glaives in Comrades were all revived and granted power by Bahamut as a means by which they would be forced to atone for their betrayal.
For another, I don't remember seeing the Ring of the Lucii in Episode Ardyn Prologue. Ardyn doesn't have it, Somnus doesn't have it, and it doesn't look like Aera had it to give to either of them. It's just not there.
Here's what I'm thinking:
Somnus and Ardyn are both given powers by Bahamut and told to use them to deal with the Scourge. These powers are meant to test them to determine who is more worthy to use the Crystal to eliminate the Scourge. Ardyn is compassionate and self-sacrificial; Somnus is aggressive and efficient.
If Bahamut was looking for someone like Noct to give his life for his people, Ardyn is the obvious choice. The problem is, Ardyn is infected and Somnus doesn't work well as a backup plan because his heart is clearly impure.
Somnus, figuring that the Astrals have no choice in the matter thanks to Ardyn's corruption, moves to remove Ardyn from the equation entirely. But, unless Bahamut told Aera that he was to be king in Ardyn's stead (which didn't seem to have happened, giving Aera's shock when he declared himself king), doing so would have been a massive act of presumption on his part, which ought to have been punished severely by the Astrals.
I initially figured that the lack of consequences must have meant that the Astrals were okay with Somnus' plan. But what if the consequences were simply different from what we expected? Perhaps Bahamut allowed Somnus to ascend the throne not because Somnus made the right choice, but because it was the most effective way to make House Caelum atone for its sins.
In this interpretation, the Ring of the Lucii would be as much a curse as it is a blessing. Its downsides wouldn't simply exist because of the amount of power it commands, but because it's meant to force House Caelum to learn the virtue of self-sacrifice. Somnus and twelve of his descendants will be required to keep watch until the Chosen King, a true innocent, appears and makes the sacrifice that Ardyn was meant to make two millennia before.
That would actually be entirely in-character for Bahamut. And, if Ardyn found out about it, it could give him even more reason to try to sabotage the whole thing.
EDIT: One more thought: if the point is that Somnus doesn't give a fig what the Astrals think, that could also explain his villain act. The point of his arrogant demeanor would be to demonstrate his flagrant disregard for the Astrals and show the people that it really didn't matter what decision they made. Of course, Bahamut is an active force in the world, so thumbing one's nose at him might not be the best idea...
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Lord_Ham_Mork and Storm
Wait wait, there's no ring in the anime prologue because we never assist at the official ceremony, the only one who tried to touch the crystal was Ardyn, but trash jesus was infected...
Wiki:"According to legend, the Ring of the Lucii was bestowed upon the kings of Lucis by the gods. According to the Final Fantasy XV Ultimania, Astrals created the ring of light, and it exists as proof of the rightful successor to the throne".
Anyway... why everyone sees Somnus as a bastard?
Ardyn was certainly a good man, but a miserable dreamer who wanted to save the world... Even knowing he could not be able to save it, because the scourge day after day was consuming him (or maybe he didn't want to accept it)...he acted like a fool dreamer and he was about to endanger the kingdom.
Probably Somnus acted like an asshole at our eyes, but let's not forget that this is EPISODE ARDYN and we see everything from his perspective, they said at the Q&A that Somnus doesn't hate Ardyn, but he was depicted just like a realist and severe king... they both wanted to save the world, but with different methods, they are both good.
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Lord_Ham_Mork