I meant in regards to entirely focusing on alt content, you can have a verse 2 and still dedicate focus on canon content.
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Lord_Ham_Mork and Storm
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Tbh I think it's very possible that nothing aside from Noct has any alt-canon material in it, but the others maybe give hints as to what could happen if he defies the crystal or their fate?
I really wish they were more clear about all of this. But it's also possible that things are subject to change
I really wish they were more clear about all of this. But it's also possible that things are subject to change
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Lord_Ham_Mork and Storm
How does it not change practically everything? Ardyn is the villain. You're not supposed to assume that he's right. If you take the game at face value, the obvious assumption is that Ardyn is just bitter that there are forces greater than him that require him to face the consequences of his disobedience.
As far as I'm concerned, FFXV is unique and fascinating in direct proportion to its rejection of the cliches that you want retconned into it. The heroes respond in faith to the will of the divine; the villain causes disaster to himself and the world by rejecting it. Making Ardyn right and turning all of that on its head would undercut everything FFXV did right. =/
As far as I'm concerned, FFXV is unique and fascinating in direct proportion to its rejection of the cliches that you want retconned into it. The heroes respond in faith to the will of the divine; the villain causes disaster to himself and the world by rejecting it. Making Ardyn right and turning all of that on its head would undercut everything FFXV did right. =/
Guys, calm down, we don't have enough information about all of this, it's all quite vague, and we need clarifications on the contents of the new DLCs.
@Ikkin I get what you're saying, I love the main ending, and how it all happened, but I would like to see a twist on it, like saving Ardyn from his fate, and turning my back on the Astrals, and see what's 'really' going on, and depending how it's done, it could be on par with the main ending, even if it's not canon to the main story, but delve into the lore.
@Ikkin I get what you're saying, I love the main ending, and how it all happened, but I would like to see a twist on it, like saving Ardyn from his fate, and turning my back on the Astrals, and see what's 'really' going on, and depending how it's done, it could be on par with the main ending, even if it's not canon to the main story, but delve into the lore.
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Paperchampion23
But the thing is Ardyn was right though.... even in the vanilla version. His story was always that of a man that tried to save the world only to be damned by it. I at the least actually pitied Ardyn by the end as he obviously got screwed over by everyone around him. Sure his actions and means to his end goal were evil and he's wrong in the sense that he abandoned his morals in his pursuit of revenge but his argument that the Astrals and crystal are all assholes has always been valid since the day one release and later pieces of story have only served to further support that claim. Noctis being told he needs to die to clean up their mess, Leviathan's completely unnecessary bitch fit getting Luna killed, Ifrit attacking humanity, Titan trying to stomp on Noctis as part of a dumb test, and even in KG the Kings of Yore being supreme douchebags to Nyx when he convened with them for completely noble and just reasons all serve as examples within the story that we got at release that the higher powers in FFXV's universe aren't all that great.
Noctis wanting to sever ties with them doesn't necessarily betray the narrative and themes already set up about the gods and the crystal screwing people over by forcing things upon them, it just shows us a different possible path that still addresses those themes but from a different angle. You can't really call FFXV's story something that rejects cliches either as the sympathetic villain, hero sacrificing himself willingly, and people conforming to divine will are all themes that are just as old as themes of having a truly corrupt villain who brought about his own ruin or a hero that rejects higher powers to forge his own destiny. Either way the more I think about it the more I'm fine with this alternate reality business as long as it does work in lore explanations like Tabata promised and gives us more insight into Eos as a world.
Tbh it could be argued that in the main timeline info regarding the world was so bare bones BECAUSE people just went along with whatever was thrown at them. Most of the actual intrigue we have in the story comes from Ardyn who also happens to be the only guy in all of Eos who apparently bothered to question anything at all over the course of 2000 years within the canon timeline. Meanwhile all of the protagonists just follow the Crystal and Astrals' plans to perfection without questioning anything and so we as the players are left uninformed about pretty much everything since no one ever asks the important questions of "Wait are you absolutely sure Noctis being skewered is the only way to do this?" or "Wait, have you guys ever tried actually cleansing Ardyn? Seems like the Oracle is pretty handy at healing the Starscourge that you're so afraid of with the powers you gods blessed her with in the first place." Hell only reason we're even talking about how Noctis could survive his fate or how he could bring back the dawn with far less collateral damage is because Verse 2 Iggy bothered to ask questions and come up with alternative answers that are apparently possible and valid.
Thing is we know next to nothing about the actual rules of FFXV's lore, we're just told things need to happen and then those things happen without us ever finding out the logistics behind said things. It's the whole reason we're even debating what's possible and what isn't within the realm of FFXV's world right now and I feel like a lot of that has to do with the original story pretty much having the cast go along with everything dealt to them. You can't have the story answer questions that were never asked within it which is why I think they ultimately decided to focus on defiance as a theme this time around as it gets characters to actually think and ask questions that can then be answered which then help to better frame the original story. Questions are ultimately a form of defiance of the status quo as they get you to seek out answers as to why things are the way they are and the original story ultimately lacks that component that would've gotten us the answers that we're now seeking. Can't inform Noctis about shit when him and everyone around him are so damn allergic to asking "why?" everyone except Ardyn which is why he's a lot of people's favorite character in FFXV as he actually gives us legitimate insight into things. The version of the story you like so much (which I prefer as well so I'm not saying you're wrong for liking it or anything) just simply doesn't lend itself to answering all of the questions we have but this far more defiant one does create that opportunity for those answers.
That's just my take on this and I think that's why Tabata went with more alternate reality stuff because I think even he realizes that the original story just simply doesn't have any place where it can actually provide these answers without there being serious rewrites and changes to the story's direction so instead we get these episodes that help to accomplish that while keeping the original story and direction intact as well. You can't have a character that constantly questions things still head down the original path where everything is predetermined for them as that makes no sense story and character wise and characters who have so much faith invested in the gods and place so much trust in destiny just simply can't provide you answers because they never seek them. In the end this way everyone gets what they want and I can see why they chose to do this if Tabata truly believes this will provide us with more insight. I'm not saying there's no chance Square will fuck up but I'm just saying everyone's losing their shit over this a bit too prematurely.
Noctis wanting to sever ties with them doesn't necessarily betray the narrative and themes already set up about the gods and the crystal screwing people over by forcing things upon them, it just shows us a different possible path that still addresses those themes but from a different angle. You can't really call FFXV's story something that rejects cliches either as the sympathetic villain, hero sacrificing himself willingly, and people conforming to divine will are all themes that are just as old as themes of having a truly corrupt villain who brought about his own ruin or a hero that rejects higher powers to forge his own destiny. Either way the more I think about it the more I'm fine with this alternate reality business as long as it does work in lore explanations like Tabata promised and gives us more insight into Eos as a world.
Tbh it could be argued that in the main timeline info regarding the world was so bare bones BECAUSE people just went along with whatever was thrown at them. Most of the actual intrigue we have in the story comes from Ardyn who also happens to be the only guy in all of Eos who apparently bothered to question anything at all over the course of 2000 years within the canon timeline. Meanwhile all of the protagonists just follow the Crystal and Astrals' plans to perfection without questioning anything and so we as the players are left uninformed about pretty much everything since no one ever asks the important questions of "Wait are you absolutely sure Noctis being skewered is the only way to do this?" or "Wait, have you guys ever tried actually cleansing Ardyn? Seems like the Oracle is pretty handy at healing the Starscourge that you're so afraid of with the powers you gods blessed her with in the first place." Hell only reason we're even talking about how Noctis could survive his fate or how he could bring back the dawn with far less collateral damage is because Verse 2 Iggy bothered to ask questions and come up with alternative answers that are apparently possible and valid.
Thing is we know next to nothing about the actual rules of FFXV's lore, we're just told things need to happen and then those things happen without us ever finding out the logistics behind said things. It's the whole reason we're even debating what's possible and what isn't within the realm of FFXV's world right now and I feel like a lot of that has to do with the original story pretty much having the cast go along with everything dealt to them. You can't have the story answer questions that were never asked within it which is why I think they ultimately decided to focus on defiance as a theme this time around as it gets characters to actually think and ask questions that can then be answered which then help to better frame the original story. Questions are ultimately a form of defiance of the status quo as they get you to seek out answers as to why things are the way they are and the original story ultimately lacks that component that would've gotten us the answers that we're now seeking. Can't inform Noctis about shit when him and everyone around him are so damn allergic to asking "why?" everyone except Ardyn which is why he's a lot of people's favorite character in FFXV as he actually gives us legitimate insight into things. The version of the story you like so much (which I prefer as well so I'm not saying you're wrong for liking it or anything) just simply doesn't lend itself to answering all of the questions we have but this far more defiant one does create that opportunity for those answers.
That's just my take on this and I think that's why Tabata went with more alternate reality stuff because I think even he realizes that the original story just simply doesn't have any place where it can actually provide these answers without there being serious rewrites and changes to the story's direction so instead we get these episodes that help to accomplish that while keeping the original story and direction intact as well. You can't have a character that constantly questions things still head down the original path where everything is predetermined for them as that makes no sense story and character wise and characters who have so much faith invested in the gods and place so much trust in destiny just simply can't provide you answers because they never seek them. In the end this way everyone gets what they want and I can see why they chose to do this if Tabata truly believes this will provide us with more insight. I'm not saying there's no chance Square will fuck up but I'm just saying everyone's losing their shit over this a bit too prematurely.
even if what he suffered was unfair that doesnt justify all his crimes against innocent people
hes a maniac
hes a maniac
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Lord_Ham_Mork
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share
did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
View attachment 969
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share
did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
Likes:
Somber and Lord_Ham_Mork
You're still assuming that Ardyn's interpretation of the facts is the valid one when there's no good reason to do this.
All we really know is this: 1) There was a plague caused by plasmodium parasites. 2) Ardyn decided, seemingly on his own volition, to try to cure the plague by absorbing it into his own body. 3) Because Ardyn turned himself into a walking, talking infestation, the Crystal considered him unworthy to ascend to the throne and chose his brother as king in his place. 4) Ardyn's brother attempted to have him executed, but it didn't work. 5) Ardyn grew incredibly bitter. 6) Ardyn's brother apparently still desires Ardyn's redemption.
There's no reason whatsoever to believe that the Astrals' reaction to Ardyn's being a walking, talking infestation was in any way unjust. Ardyn made a bad choice and had to deal with the consequences. Their treatment of Noct, meanwhile, appeared to be based on practicalities -- they needed a King who was powerful enough to defeat Ardyn, and nothing short of Noct's sacrifice would be sufficient. This is one of the most significant problems with the existence of a canonical workaround, for the record -- it completely destroys the context that allowed the original ending to be anything other than an unnecessary tragedy.
Since when was FFXV ever about "the gods and the crystal screwing people over by forcing things upon them?" That might be true of FFXIII and FNC, but OG FFXV clearly broke from that mold and was far more interested in inevitability than divine capriciousness.
It's also important to understand that there's a difference between archetypes -- the sympathetic villain, the hero sacrificing himself willingly, people conforming to divine will, a truly corrupt villain who brought about his own ruin -- and a cliche like the hero who overthrows the gods through sheer force of will. Archetypes might be staples, but their perseverance is largely a consequence of their lasting relevance. The attraction to heroes who successfully cheat fate by laying waste to the metaphysical foundations of their universe, in contrast, is a particularly modern pathology (I blame Nietzsche), and one that FFXV was much stronger for resisting.
Well, you don't have to reward the heroes for fighting fate in order to use their fight against fate to answer questions that went unanswered in the original game. If the point was simply to answer more questions, the best way to do that is the troll solution I suggested before -- have the alternate ending result in unmitigated failure, much like Ardyn and Ravus' attempts to find an alternate solution in the original game.
...on a more positive note, this is a brilliant detail. <3
All we really know is this: 1) There was a plague caused by plasmodium parasites. 2) Ardyn decided, seemingly on his own volition, to try to cure the plague by absorbing it into his own body. 3) Because Ardyn turned himself into a walking, talking infestation, the Crystal considered him unworthy to ascend to the throne and chose his brother as king in his place. 4) Ardyn's brother attempted to have him executed, but it didn't work. 5) Ardyn grew incredibly bitter. 6) Ardyn's brother apparently still desires Ardyn's redemption.
There's no reason whatsoever to believe that the Astrals' reaction to Ardyn's being a walking, talking infestation was in any way unjust. Ardyn made a bad choice and had to deal with the consequences. Their treatment of Noct, meanwhile, appeared to be based on practicalities -- they needed a King who was powerful enough to defeat Ardyn, and nothing short of Noct's sacrifice would be sufficient. This is one of the most significant problems with the existence of a canonical workaround, for the record -- it completely destroys the context that allowed the original ending to be anything other than an unnecessary tragedy.
Since when was FFXV ever about "the gods and the crystal screwing people over by forcing things upon them?" That might be true of FFXIII and FNC, but OG FFXV clearly broke from that mold and was far more interested in inevitability than divine capriciousness.
It's also important to understand that there's a difference between archetypes -- the sympathetic villain, the hero sacrificing himself willingly, people conforming to divine will, a truly corrupt villain who brought about his own ruin -- and a cliche like the hero who overthrows the gods through sheer force of will. Archetypes might be staples, but their perseverance is largely a consequence of their lasting relevance. The attraction to heroes who successfully cheat fate by laying waste to the metaphysical foundations of their universe, in contrast, is a particularly modern pathology (I blame Nietzsche), and one that FFXV was much stronger for resisting.
Well, you don't have to reward the heroes for fighting fate in order to use their fight against fate to answer questions that went unanswered in the original game. If the point was simply to answer more questions, the best way to do that is the troll solution I suggested before -- have the alternate ending result in unmitigated failure, much like Ardyn and Ravus' attempts to find an alternate solution in the original game.
View attachment 969
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share
did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
Likes:
Dorothy95 and Lord_Ham_Mork
I'm just going to say that there's no way they are going to make an Ardyn DLC only to make him look more evil lol.
I mean, look at what they are trying to do with this DLC, they are trying to SAVE him from this fate he's cursed with.
We actually have every reason to believe that what Ardyn is saying is true, especially now that they are even going in this direction. There would be no reason to make DLC therwise if it wasn't to go against the Crystal's will, there's literally no other viable explanation if we are following canon here.
If they are trying to save Ardyn, Luna and Noctis, who are they saving them from? That's the question that is being posed here. We can come to the conclusion that Ardyn isn't the worst of it.
Edit: You are totally right in your lore argument, I'm just saying that this has to be only way they go about it.
Tl;dr: To reject their fate is to reject the crystal basically. The crystal is likely not all good.
This is what I wanted to say on the matter and you've described it perfectly. Thank you.
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I don't mind whether the alternate stuff ends in total failure or total success just as long as it opens up opportunities for real in story questions to be asked and answered since like I said the original story just has everyone except Ardyn acting passive as hell just blindly following and believing everything that they're fed by the higher powers. As I mentioned before, story wise you can't randomly drop in exposition that nobody inquired about or initiated a proper situation for it to be brought up in (seriously isn't payoff without build-up already like everyone's biggest gripe with the vanilla version?). Blindly faithful Noct isn't going ask Bahamut the important questions but curious and critical thinking Noctis is definitely going to go "Hold the fuck up, why is any of this happening and why is there no other alternative?" To me the answers of a more defiant alternate reality are more important than the happy or sad outcome they may bring about as both are equally arbitrary at this point imo since the original will always hold more canon importance over either one.
Honestly what difference does it make to the main ending if the alternate stuff ends one way or another? Both just seem like preferential outcomes for their respective groups of advocates. I don't see much difference in you wanting a super sad ending that gets rid of all of the sweetness of the original ending as it actually did have some really tender and sweet aspects to it and the difference in people wanting the super happy ending that removes all of the bitterness of the original ending where more of the realness and "life just sucks sometimes" aspects are removed. I'm personally fine with either one and to have both would be cool. Anyways I know you love the original ending and I'm right there with you as it will always be my preferred one but the main problem it has is that the entire theme of it is essentially just "Jesus take the wheel!!!" as everyone doesn't give two shits about the situation being forced upon them due to their blind loyalty to destiny and fate. Wanting characters to pry for answers then still having them continue down a preordained path is a "have your cake and eat it too" situation. More I think about it the more the original campaign's fetish for ambiguity to the max makes sense now, cuz no one but the player ever wants any answers in it. lol
Edit: Also I'm fairly certain if Noct's episode has branching paths we'll get both super sad and super happy outcomes anyway.
Honestly what difference does it make to the main ending if the alternate stuff ends one way or another? Both just seem like preferential outcomes for their respective groups of advocates. I don't see much difference in you wanting a super sad ending that gets rid of all of the sweetness of the original ending as it actually did have some really tender and sweet aspects to it and the difference in people wanting the super happy ending that removes all of the bitterness of the original ending where more of the realness and "life just sucks sometimes" aspects are removed. I'm personally fine with either one and to have both would be cool. Anyways I know you love the original ending and I'm right there with you as it will always be my preferred one but the main problem it has is that the entire theme of it is essentially just "Jesus take the wheel!!!" as everyone doesn't give two shits about the situation being forced upon them due to their blind loyalty to destiny and fate. Wanting characters to pry for answers then still having them continue down a preordained path is a "have your cake and eat it too" situation. More I think about it the more the original campaign's fetish for ambiguity to the max makes sense now, cuz no one but the player ever wants any answers in it. lol
Edit: Also I'm fairly certain if Noct's episode has branching paths we'll get both super sad and super happy outcomes anyway.
Don't mean to be confrontational, but how exactly is an entire series with the main theme of creating an alternate ending "DLC that's closely linked to the main game" ?
That's doing the exact opposite if the alternate ending finale is their tagline...
You have a good point.
However, I fail to see how they can fit in Episode Luna and Noctis into the main game, as well as Ardyn's episode.
Aranea has the possibility of being added to the core game, but I don't think it's likely since the main cast character's didn't even get their episodes added in.
View attachment 969
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
okay guys i know it's not the topic right now but i've just seen this screen on some fb group and felt that i must share
did you see that gentiana's water reflection is shiva (orrrrr almost-naked-gentiana-in-shivas-clothes). But I'm ever more amazed that she apparently took off her shoes and pulled up her pants so they won't get wet xD
Likes:
Lord_Ham_Mork
I'd argue Ardyn is a poor villain because his motives never make any sense. His plight and his struggles make sense, but his actions (especially in the DLCs) contradict what his endgame is. Why fuck with the main party if he wants Noctis to succeed? Why almost go to kill Noctis if he wants him to ascend? Why fuck with Prompto if he's needed in order for Noctis to ascend?
I understand him manipulating people to push them forward, but in some ways he isn't pushing them forward but making their job even worse. His goal is for revenge on Lucis, but Noctis never did anything to him. It's been 2,000 years, you'd think in that time he'd mellow out a bit, but instead he's just fucked around all these years doing god only knows what until the time was right then he's like okay time to make a fuss.
Also, the fact that he barely puts up a fight in the final battle kind of sucks, but I chalk that up to the game's bosses feeling underwhelming most of the time anyway.
I think Ardyn as a character is fine, and I think his backstory is going to be infinitely more interesting than anything he did throughout the game because it's basically the story of a hero turn villain.
I understand him manipulating people to push them forward, but in some ways he isn't pushing them forward but making their job even worse. His goal is for revenge on Lucis, but Noctis never did anything to him. It's been 2,000 years, you'd think in that time he'd mellow out a bit, but instead he's just fucked around all these years doing god only knows what until the time was right then he's like okay time to make a fuss.
Also, the fact that he barely puts up a fight in the final battle kind of sucks, but I chalk that up to the game's bosses feeling underwhelming most of the time anyway.
I think Ardyn as a character is fine, and I think his backstory is going to be infinitely more interesting than anything he did throughout the game because it's basically the story of a hero turn villain.
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Wena Washo and Vallen