Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

[Ikkin]

First of all, we need to look at how games are printed. Starting with the obvious, a production line is required to print games. To do that each production line is required to be calibrated in order to complete a print. Meaning they cannot switch data in and out like a USB. Each data needs it's own offsets. So at any given time, a production line can only print a single game. Production lines are also expensive as well, so it's not a case where there are dozens of them. I do not know whether SE has their own lines, or if they outsource printing. However, either way is is still limited. If they have their own lines, then it would most likely be just a few. Production lines run on schedules, meaning each line has a purpose to print something specific. You cannot simply add another print in without delaying this schedule, that is why delays with games have a much bigger ripple effect than people may think. It delays everything.
If they outsource printing, then there may be more production lines, but most likely they are printing many other things too, not just games. It's slightly more expensive as well.

To print more than one disc for a single game would mean almost double the increase in costs. It would require multiple production lines offset with unique data. Using another line would also mean it cannot print another different game. And as I said, production runs on schedule. Pushing two lines for one game would mean pushing another out. This creates a big imbalance in cost to performance. By using a line that can be used for something else, you are essentially losing productivity. Which as a business, is a bad thing.

All of this would have been true back in 1997, though. And, actually, since publishers like Squenix can't put out as many games nowadays as they did back in the PSOne era, productivity is likely less of an issue than it's ever been.

The real risk in printing multiple discs is that you'd probably need to deliver the gold master earlier in order to get the discs finished in the same amount of time, whether because you're printing them serially or because you need to find two openings in the production facility's schedule instead of one. But, again, that's nothing new, really.

Another thing is how much you can actually utilize the second disc to make it actually worth it. If the second disc only takes 10GB that becomes a waste. And to fill it up more, say 30GB, you would need to develop more content, which means taking a lot more time in development. If you manage to fill up two discs, you are developing two games by industry standards, for the price of one game.

Not all content is equal. You can use up quite a bit of extra space just by using higher-quality video or less aggressive compression, if you really feel the need to justify a second disc.

You can kinda solve the install issue by keeping the game on disc and not installing it. But this would increase loading times and this creates another issue.

I don't think current-gen systems are even capable of running straight from disc. HDD access speeds are necessary for open-world streaming to function properly.

You cannot simply split a 90GB game into 45/45 into two discs. If you want to access the areas you accessed in the first disc in the second disc, you would need to duplicate all of the data assets. So if data assets are 40GB of a 90GB game, that needs to be duplicated into 2 discs and the remaining data needs to split accordingly.

Doing the math (theoretical)
90GB Game 40GB asset data + 50GB content data/other
Disc One 40GB + 25GB = 65GB
Disc Two 40GB + 25GB = 65GB

As you have noticed, both exceeds the data limit. So you require a third disc, in which you need to duplicate the data again. In which might require a fourth. It's not exactly simple math.

TL;DR Point being, the industry is simply not set up properly to take this route.

If the game is never being read from the disc, there's no reason why the second disc should require duplicate data, though. Reasonably speaking, the second disc should be a hard copy of a "patch" that might need to duplicate a few GB of data but could use the rest of its space for additional stuff.

 

[Nova]

And, on the other hand, FFXV took advantage of a familiar formula, too (ie open world). It just implemented it in a way that demands that people accept it on its own unusual terms (the way an indie title might) much of the time, which is really weird in an environment where AAA games generally try to streamline themselves as much as possible.

Late post, but specifically, what do you mean?

 

[xXShuyaXx]

Late post, but specifically, what do you mean?

In my own personal understanding, most AAA titles are pretty linear these days but provides rich and unique content, like different environments depending on the story. While AAA open world games allow players with every bit of freedom to do anything, the world may be bigger, but the artistic scale is drastically limited. Example, GTA5 gives players freedom to do anything in a open environment, but this environment is limited to essentially one backdrop. TLOU doesn't have much in terms of freedom like GTA5, but it's able to give players different experiences. Like going from the city to a forest, to a cave etc, basically an adventure.

What FFXV tried to do is take all of that. Open world streamline adventure. But it's only a small portion. It's open world, but it's a limited open world with only half the freedom one would expect from a open world game. It's not exactly a streamline story driven game like TLOU/UC either. But it's a little bit of both. However the players are used to one or the other. They expect one thing to be one thing. In that sense, FFXV is it's own industry genre. But people expect everything, like if it's open world, they expect swimming/climbing/jumping on cars and all that. But as FFXV is it's own genre, it created a new experience which went forward, but backwards at the same time. There has never been a AAA title much like FFXV before and the results are very interesting. It contains a lot of new things, but it's also missing a lot of old things.

 

[xXShuyaXx]

All of this would have been true back in 1997, though. And, actually, since publishers like Squenix can't put out as many games nowadays as they did back in the PSOne era, productivity is likely less of an issue than it's ever been.

The real risk in printing multiple discs is that you'd probably need to deliver the gold master earlier in order to get the discs finished in the same amount of time, whether because you're printing them serially or because you need to find two openings in the production facility's schedule instead of one. But, again, that's nothing new, really.



Not all content is equal. You can use up quite a bit of extra space just by using higher-quality video or less aggressive compression, if you really feel the need to justify a second disc.



I don't think current-gen systems are even capable of running straight from disc. HDD access speeds are necessary for open-world streaming to function properly.



If the game is never being read from the disc, there's no reason why the second disc should require duplicate data, though. Reasonably speaking, the second disc should be a hard copy of a "patch" that might need to duplicate a few GB of data but could use the rest of its space for additional stuff.

TLDR, as I said, the industry just isn't equipped for it.

 

[Ikkin]

Late post, but specifically, what do you mean?

FFXV is all but actively hostile towards fast travel (it takes forever, you don't get AP boosts, you can't always go where you want, time still passes in-game, you have to pay for gas) because it wants you to feel like you've spent time on the open road. And it is actively hostile towards traveling at night, to the point that it ratchets the difficulty up to near-impossibility if you manage to take out an Iron Giant early on regardless.

Tabata namedropped Shadow of the Colossus when saying that he was okay with the open world being empty, and that doesn't seem accidental. There's definitely a sense that the design of FFXV's open world was intended to foster a particular sort of feeling rather than to provide things to do regardless of where one chooses to go.

 

[Nova]

Thank you!

Another question to both @Ikkin & @xXShuyaXx

What would have happened if, lets say, BD2 went with the VII:Remake route in regards to splitting content between each episode with XV? How viable would it have been? Since it originally was going to do something similar since E3 2013, before going back to the single disc game option.

 

[DrBretto]

You wanna talk about an unfinished game they never should have released? I remember reading about this a while back.

This game, I tell ya. It was missing all kinds of stuff. And you could see the placeholders in game. And all kinds of unfinished stuff hidden in the game files.

Not just little stuff missing, either. There's evidence I'm the files of entire schools of magic being removed. In the full game, you get the rewards, but they don't even work! They just sit there in your inventory.

That game, that terrible, piece of unfinished crap was the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time. Now, I sure wouldn't want to support any company that would release such a blatantly unfinished product like that. Everybody grab your pitchforks.

https://zeldawiki.org/Unused_Content

 

[Nova]

Oh, but lets not forget that disasterous critically acclaimed Super Mario Sunshine, which not only was it in development for a year and a half, but also had 5 worlds cut. Along its initial 60fps being halved to 30 in the final release, train system getting the axe, etc...

http://gonintendo.com/stories/24172...e-cancelled-multiplayer-and-other-tidbits-fro

Scumbag Nintendo /s

 

[xXShuyaXx]

Thank you!

Another question to both @Ikkin & @xXShuyaXx

What would have happened if, lets say, BD2 went with the VII:Remake route in regards to splitting content between each episode with XV? How viable would it have been? Since it originally was going to do something similar since E3 2013, before going back to the single disc game option.

That would have been the best route "for the game". However, when you make a game like, you are basically creating the base and a series of sequels after that. The first title needs to be successful for the latter to succeed. There was no guarantee that FFXV would have been greatly successful and there was no guarantee that the sequels would have made enough profit to continue the series. As a business, this is a very risky move. But probably would have been best for it's creative freedom.
FFVII can kinda bet it's money with that route, as it already has a huge base to work on. Whereas FFXV does not. It's also a game that people have waited over 10 years for.

No doubt, even if Versus released in the episodic format, there would have been as many people complaining now. Though that's my personal opinion with all things gamers are "concerned" about these days.

 

[Jubileus]

No doubt, even if Versus released in the episodic format, there would have been as many people complaining now. Though that's my personal opinion with all things gamers are "concerned" about these days.

I agree with this, and is my opinion on the matter also.

It seems that no matter what game it is, there will always be people who will flame it (deserved or not deserved opinions notwithstanding)

I do wonder what happened to gamers nowadays? What ever happened to just enjoying games for what they are?

Constructive criticism aside, people hate and act entitled over the dumbest things.

For example Zelda's appearance in BOTW is getting flamed because of her goddamn eyebrows... her eyebrows!

It was a "big" enough issue to have its own thread over

 

[xXShuyaXx]

I agree with this, and is my opinion on the matter also.

It seems that no matter what game it is, there will always be people who will flame it (deserved or not deserved opinions notwithstanding)

I do wonder what happened to gamers nowadays? What ever happened to just enjoying games for what they are?

Constructive criticism aside, people hate and act entitled over the dumbest things.

For example Zelda's appearance in BOTW is getting flamed because of her goddamn eyebrows... her eyebrows!

It was a "big" enough issue to have its own thread over

Haha, you should look at the FFXIV userbase.

"Bewbs are not big enough! Give us bewb sliders! Give us ass sliders!! GIVE US MALE BULGE SLIDERS!"

Of all things, people complain about the weirdest crap.

 

[Jubileus]

Haha, you should look at the FFXIV userbase.

"Bewbs are not big enough! Give us bewb sliders! Give us ass sliders!! GIVE US MALE BULGE SLIDERS!"

Of all things, people complain about the weirdest crap.

What on Earth did I just read? Lol!

Oh dear... sounds like the rantings and ravings of people who will never be satisfied no matter what the developers do.

More, more and more, yet it will never be enough for them.

It's such a shame really.

 

[xXShuyaXx]

What on Earth did I just read? Lol!

Oh dear... sounds like the rantings and ravings of people who will never be satisfied no matter what the developers do.

More, more and more, yet it will never be enough for them.

It's such a shame really.

Funny thing is, people actually said this and I am not exaggerating it.

 

[Storm]

tbh i never saw the "boobs aren't big enough" as a complaint/rant when ppl make topics about it on the official forums, they treated more like a "minor issue" hehe, boobs are important...

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Ikkin]

Thank you!

Another question to both @Ikkin & @xXShuyaXx

What would have happened if, lets say, BD2 went with the VII:Remake route in regards to splitting content between each episode with XV? How viable would it have been? Since it originally was going to do something similar since E3 2013, before going back to the single disc game option.

It's hard to say, because I think the game would have needed to be structured differently if it were to be split into episodes. The current structure is essentially ideal for developing the core plot as a single game, even if it feels like it could have benefited from another year to further flesh out the story and add a few more areas.

And, of course, as @xXShuyaXx said, it'd have been a very risky business move, because less people buy direct sequel FFs even in the best of times.

Personally, I'd have much rather had a version of FFXV with four real years of development (as opposed to three) than an episodic game. I was never really happy with that when Nomura started talking about it. =/

 

[Guitar (pseudo)God]

I laughed a few times.

 

[Guitar (pseudo)God]

You wanna talk about an unfinished game they never should have released? I remember reading about this a while back.

This game, I tell ya. It was missing all kinds of stuff. And you could see the placeholders in game. And all kinds of unfinished stuff hidden in the game files.

Not just little stuff missing, either. There's evidence I'm the files of entire schools of magic being removed. In the full game, you get the rewards, but they don't even work! They just sit there in your inventory.

That game, that terrible, piece of unfinished crap was the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time. Now, I sure wouldn't want to support any company that would release such a blatantly unfinished product like that. Everybody grab your pitchforks.

https://zeldawiki.org/Unused_Content

Speaking of missing content - how much of Secret Of Mana had to be scrapped when the Sony/Nintendo partnership broke down? 75%?

 

[llazy77]

I laughed a few times.

Didnt much laugh, as I agreed with all he was saying.

 

[llazy77]

Only reason i honestly bought up XIII was due to existing arguments when some people compared it to XV in content.

I'll go an extra mile and add that even Wind Waker's latter half being stripped of dungeon content (ending up with the infamous triforce quest), due to the game being rushed for GC release, didn't make it's praise unwarrented (even earning a GOTY award from Gamespot even). I don't even know why you felt the need to reiterate XV's rushed shortcomings when no one argued otherwise.

Its not even just Wind Waker actually, even Super Smash Bros Melee and Sonic the Hegehog 2 were rushed (the latter game cutting out 5 planned zones and a time travel feature InB4SonicCD), yet are looked up upon quite fondly in their respective franchise thanks to their strengths.

Not everyone define's a game for only its flaws. Otherwise you're just reaching here.

The problem is the unfinished state of XV affected the story greatly, with a game like Zelda its not really that story driven. Although with Wind Waker I was pretty annoyed that they had little dungeons then they tried to fill the game with the triforce hunt at the end just to artificially have more play time. Now that I think about it XV does this as well some of the dungeons you need to unlock with the key are samey and lazily designed as well as all these side quests artifically lengthening gameplay time too. Most of the sidequests are just fetch quests with little reason.

You wanna talk about an unfinished game they never should have released? I remember reading about this a while back.

This game, I tell ya. It was missing all kinds of stuff. And you could see the placeholders in game. And all kinds of unfinished stuff hidden in the game files.

Not just little stuff missing, either. There's evidence I'm the files of entire schools of magic being removed. In the full game, you get the rewards, but they don't even work! They just sit there in your inventory.

That game, that terrible, piece of unfinished crap was the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time. Now, I sure wouldn't want to support any company that would release such a blatantly unfinished product like that. Everybody grab your pitchforks.

https://zeldawiki.org/Unused_Content

I know but OOT feels complete even if it has alot of content that wasnet used in the game, XV do sent give me the same feeling of completness. When I was playing OOT I didnt feel anything was missing when I beat with XV tho I felt alot was missing like areas (when you just run past Tenabre or not exploring Niflhiem propely even after seeing these areas to explore in the backround. Also the story feeling incomplete (even fans of the game dont deny this). Some games that were rushed felt like a complete package where no one really noticed the holes that much. But with XV there is tons of complaints the wholes are wide open and really noticable.

 

[llazy77]

Oh when will people understand that physicals disks are not a magical portal...

50GB is the industry standard, having said that, the actual practical limit is around 46.57GB depending on the manufacturing process. FFXV hit this limit hard before the crown update, with the initial data on the physical disk.

There is a big difference in cutting content for business reasons and cutting content for technical reasons. If FFXV was only 30GB with the content it has now, then yes, they stripped the game off and sold it incomplete. But that is not the case. They only removed content because it simply would not have fit into a single disc. In this sense, it is correct for Tabata to say that the development team did their utmost best to complete the game.

A lot of the demands that people are claiming are really unreasonable, such as saying everything in the DLC's should have been in the game in the first place. But as I said, it just cannot work that way. At least they are trying to compensate what is lacking with updates.

The game is as full as it can get speaking technically.

One may argue that they can use multiple discs like they did back in the PS1 era. Games like FFVII were cheaper to develop back then compared to now. To create a big AAA game is not as easier as it was then. Technology improves to create better games, but at the same time, the cost to make games is also increasing.
If it was an option to use more discs for a single game, developers would have done it. But they haven't, because it's not. I can go on as to explain why this method is no longer a solution in the current gen, but that will become a wall of text. But you can challenge me if you like.

THis could also be a problem with focusing on using Extremly high end graphics, which uses up so much space you can use for more content. Something like Xenoblade is humongous simply cause it was using Wii Textures. They could have also prioritized things making the world smaller but pack more content into a smaller world. Also They could have just made XV like VII-R and release it in 2 or more parts. Yes they probably didnt want a XIII problem where the sequals sold much less, but I think they would have looked more favorably to XV than XIII simply because the story is better. A XV-2 and XV-3 would have been fine imo.