A Counterargument: A criticism of FFXV (before release)

[Storm]

I can't deny that many elements removed from Versus XIII had room for a lot of potential (dark and tragic tone, Stella, original Imsomnia invasion, Etro and the light of the dead...), but FFXV is basically the same game (mostly), it's the closer thing we'll get from Versus XIII so I'll enjoy it for what it is.

 

[Kagari]

Maybe in 20 years Nomura can remake it ;>

 

[heartimecia]

I can see your points about how it's definitely been Westernized in order to appeal to the Western audience.
I guess I've always personally seen Final Fantasy as something that continuously evolves. It feels like a Final Fantasy to me because in spite of the Western influences, it's Japanese at heart, and it is involving a variety of cultures into a wonderful and beautiful mix - something that has always been a part of the series. It is Final Fantasy due to its traditional aspects and callbacks like the Chocobos, summons like Carbuncle, familiar spells, etc, but it has definitely evolved - which is a great thing that allows the series to keep going forward. It's going to be a modern Final Fantasy like VIII or XIII, but that doesn't make it not Final Fantasy.

1. I'm not happy with Stella's removal and then being replaced with Luna. Seriously, I can't pinpoint exactly, but I think I've seen someone, or a similar character archetype with Luna before in another FF game. And from what we know about her currently, I'm not very pleased as of how she's being portrayed as if she's some sort of sacred cow and can do no wrong, urg.
2. I'm upset with Regis's appearance to make him more Western and I'd prefer the one from the 2013 trailers and older, thank you very much. Seriously, he looks so boring in his new appearance and doesn't resemble Noctis one bit. Maybe there's a story reason for this, but I still do not like his new look.
3. Say what you want about FNC in general, but I'm distraught with the removal of the FNC lore (or most of it) in FFXV and I have yet to recover with all these changes announced over the past two years after so many years of expecting a different perspective of the FNC lore and suddenly being told that almost none of it will be retained in the final game. It's like being told you're going to a vacation somewhere far and refreshing that is different from your country's usual climate and you've already set plans to head there, only to be frustratingly shocked at the last minute that you're going to a place that you don't even remembered agreed of even going and there's nothing you can ever change about it.

I think these things are inevitable for a unique case like XV with its long development history. We rarely generally see what is or isn't cut from the final version of a game, so having seen these things and observed this game's development process has undoubtedly produced feelings like this.
I understand where you're coming from and your frustrations are understandable, as well as unlikely to change until the final product is released.

Personally, as a long time fan, I didn't feel that *Final Fantasy feely feel* until the recent Uncovered event and the subsequent Platinum demo. I didn't feel it with Episode Duscae, but now I do, and I'm just so purely excited for it to come out. I hope, rather than any person offering their opinion, that the game gets around to convincing you and giving you the feeling that you wish you could have right now!

 

[Lulcielid]

Maybe in 20 years Nomura can remake it ;>

Assuming he doesn't retair by that time.

 

[ChronoRiskbreaker]

Assuming he doesn't retair by that time.

Kingdom Hearts 4 will yet to be out by that time. And before that, a plethora of new spinoffs, as usual.
Or maybe Nomura is leading the remakes of some mainline Final Fantasy.
Either way, he better have an epic reason why'd he want to retire.

 

[LeonBlade]

Maybe in 20 years Nomura can remake it ;>

No need to remake perfection.

 

[dissasterrific]

1. I'm not happy with Stella's removal and then being replaced with Luna. Seriously, I can't pinpoint exactly, but I think I've seen someone, or a similar character archetype with Luna before in another FF game. And from what we know about her currently, I'm not very pleased as of how she's being portrayed as if she's some sort of sacred cow and can do no wrong, urg.

I'm not happy with Luna so far either since she seems to be nothing more than a Yuna clone along with a few other common tropes.

I at least share the concerns here regarding where Luna's character is heading. There is no way we're demeaning females in mage roles; both Yuna and Garnet proved their respective strengths in making important decisions that were central to their games' stories- but these traditional roles were often given to females in the past only, and when this trope has been completely broken down by the likes of Lightning and especially Ashe (because of her role as a young princess in XII), we expect the series to finally explore more on what else the main females can do in the story. The only thing we know about Luna other than this is being Noctis' betrothed, which brings up a risk of her turning out to be another Rinoa- someone written only to contribute to Noctis' character development. There is definitely a lot for them to prove about her character's individuality and significance.

On the other hand, I understand the feelings of disappointment when Stella's concept was replaced; her warrior-like image left a strong imprint in our minds for years, which made us expect a lot from her character. However, at the end of the day Stella was nothing but a concept, and we literally knew nothing about her (other than being Noctis' Versus part (rival), which I admit is still such a great concept and it's a shame it's gone; however, we know nothing beyond this fact, making this concept pretty empty). The transition from Stella to Luna seems to be a part of a necessary change in order to deliver XV as a full single package asap, as opposed to Nomura's initial vision of the Versus Epic which consisted sequels, where I assume Stella was first considered to be playable.

1. I'm upset with Regis's appearance to make him more Western and I'd prefer the one from the 2013 trailers and older, thank you very much. Seriously, he looks so boring in his new appearance and doesn't resemble Noctis one bit. Maybe there's a story reason for this, but I still do not like his new look.

His first appearances from, like, 2007-08 have always been very Western.

He looks older now because they introduced a new thing in the story that Caelum kings rapidly age whenever they use the power of their ring.

1. Say what you want about FNC in general, but I'm distraught with the removal of the FNC lore (or most of it) in FFXV and I have yet to recover with all these changes announced over the past two years after so many years of expecting a different perspective of the FNC lore and suddenly being told that almost none of it will be retained in the final game. It's like being told you're going to a vacation somewhere far and refreshing that is different from your country's usual climate and you've already set plans to head there, only to be frustratingly shocked at the last minute that you're going to a place that you don't even remembered agreed of even going and there's nothing you can ever change about it.

I will let you know that the FNC lore is my most favorite mythos in the series. I've read almost everything about it, analyzed it very closely for a few years, as part of being a XIII and Type-0 fan. Naturally, I discussed it numerous times on how Versus XIII would utilize it, but the thing is: there was, in fact, literally little to nothing we know about how it would be explored at all. What comprised discussions about it were mostly pure theories from the little bits we knew about Versus, which were not even completely concrete. What happened in your case is that you depended too much on the expectations on how Versus would use FNC, which is not entirely your fault because this entire situation is a result of Square Enix revealing Versus too early.

I know many of you have stated that if it makes the game better, it's okay but I don't. I'm very upset over these changes and there's nothing for you to stop me from thinking that way. What some of us were promised that will be in FFXV/Versus XIII were not realised in the end (e.g. playing as other characters other than Noctis) and fine, you may say that's a decision made by Nomura that we can only play the game as Noctis. But having said that, previous FF games allow you to take control of a number of playable characters besides the main one (except for Lightning Returns, but that's an exception) but in FFXV? Only Noctis. No one else, other than controlling their battle behaviours before encountering a battle. You may argue it's because of story reasons and he's compensating it by having a large arsenal of weapons. You may argue that it's a refreshing take of the battle system from what we've seen in previous games. But the experience isn't the same anymore and I was hoping I could take control of Prompto and Ignis and Gladiolus so that I can get a feel of how these characters play out in a fight. I've played the Duscae Demo and I still feel that I can't connect with the characters even with the idle dialogue with each other even if you're paying much attention.

Rather than us trying to stop you to think this way, we're giving you different reasons on why these changes happened, and why they're not necessarily unacceptable to a Versus fan who has been waiting since 2006. In the simplest terms, during the development of projects, there are times where features you desire to implement need to be omitted or least prioritize in order to fully realize the final product by deadline. This project has already taken 10 years to be completed, and a huge part of the reason on why this happened at all was that the ideas and desire Nomura had were too ambitious considering the various limitations they have.

Your argument that the experience wouldn't be the same anymore is of course, true, but has not much weight compared to what we have right now, which is strongly connected to the story focusing on Noctis' personal journey along with his unique combat style.

 

[NemesisSP]

I think the biggest thing against Tabata not really honoring Nomura's vision of the game is that.... well he's trying to hard to do so, to the point of removing stuff he feels that they could screw up. Like with him revealing that they removed Stella because they were worried that fans would not accept that she had been changed to fit in with the game's new vision. However, I think by that same token he didn't think of the other side of it, that fans would be unhappy about the removal. We can deal with changes to the story as long as you don't tell us that these things have happened, or at least halfway explain it. Basically, I think as this was his first huge project that he didn't really think things through to start off with.

Now, I just want to make this clear that I'm not saying that he's not a capable director, but I think having him be sole director of a game this big so soon after his biggest success with Final Fantasy Type-0 was a premature decision. I think Nomura leaving the project when he did was a premature decision. I think that removing elements from the game because they rebranded it was a premature decision. Overall, Tabata's leadership of the project, at least in its earlier days, was made of nothing but premature decisions? "Fans wouldn't appreciate Stella being changed? Fine, we'll just remove her completely, that'll make things better." He's obviously gotten his act together, but going from a portable game director to the sole director of the biggest game in the franchise yet, the game that's meant to usher in a new era of FF gaming, was a big premature decision.

It may work out for the better and I do believe Tabata is sincere about honoring Nomura's vision. I just think he went about it the wrong way and rubbed fans the wrong way with it. I don't think we'd be discussing this if he hadn't decided to replace Stella completely just because he thought fans wouldn't be happy with them changing her. Or the change in tone and removal of entire levels of gameplay just to change the game to fit in with his vision. And in the end, I think Tabata let his own vision for the game get in the way of honoring the original director's vision.

Will they ever revisit that original vision? Probably not, but hopefully we'll get to see what that original vision was.

 

[Edge]

I will buy FFXV the way it is now and I think I will have fun playing the game, but I will have hard time to accept that we will never see Nomura's vesion of Versus. We don't know when we will see a mainline FF title takes place on a modern settings like FFXV. It's really a shame and what's worse that this game was announced on 2006, meaning we have been waiting for 10 years!

I hope Nomura and his team go back to Versus and reuse what Tabata and his team build in FFXV, the world, the assets, the gameplay mechanics, characters models.etc and remake the game the way Nomura always want it, but this brings up more questions. Would it be better to forget about Versus and start to make something entirely new? Would it be worth it to go back to Versus and remake it?

 

[AnGer-dono]

I think Nomura leaving the project when he did was a premature decision.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Nomura never fully "left" the project. He is still the main character designer, he has some oversight to the narrative and he is apparently still on the team as a producer. Tabata's introduction was also not as sudden as it is often seen as - he was co-director for about a year until the news that he'd be taking over broke and I don't see the decision as having been rash.

What I speculate happened was that SE executives firstly wanted someone to helm the project who could finish it in a timeframe that was manageable for the company and secondly wanted for Nomura to put his focus on other projects like FF VII: Remake and Kingdom Hearts III.

 

[NemesisSP]

Considering that it was once reported that the current development team do not inform Nomura about the game anymore, I doubt he has any current creative control over the project. Otherwise I doubt he'd have allowed Stella, a character he had once described as being very different from past female characters in the franchise, to be removed. I could be wrong, but that's only because we know very little about the full details of his departure from the project. I don't think it's even been confirmed if Nomura actually designed Luna, as SE has used other character designers in games that he worked on.

As it stands though, while leaving Tabata as full time director after being co-director for about a year doesn't seem like a rash decision, the fact that the game seems to have gone through a complete overhaul once he took over doesn't make it look better. And again, the man had only been involved in portable game development before and Episode Duscae's played a bit more like a portable game than a console one (maps being available only on the menu screen, having limited control over the party outside Noctis, etc) and yes, it's a demo so it will have its growing pains, but the point still stands. Not just that, but many comments he made, especially his latest reveal about Stella, hints that he didn't actually think through the long term implications of many of his decisions. As I pointed out, removing a character out of fear that players wouldn't accept that they had been changed might not have been the best way to handle that. If changing them would upset fans, who had a clear picture of the character even with the little details we had of her, then why would removing her not upset fans? I call it a premature decision because, no matter what one thinks of Stella or Luna, basing the decision on that information doesn't seem like he thought about both sides. IE, he thought about what fans would think if they changed her, but he didn't consider what would happen if they removed her.

I'm not stating either way that this true, I'm just stating that from this perspective, it does seem like the game under Tabata's direction had a lot of rash decisions made based on rather weak things. But that doesn't mean the game will be bad, just that it's development was very troubled.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it confirmed that FFXV was still part of the FNC subseries earlier this week? Only that certain terms had been removed and additional elements added?

 

[Zero]

Honestly? It gets boring after a while. When you ran through multiple characters whose arcs can be summed up as "starting off as a lonely wolf who wants to solve problems on their own but eventually sees that teamwork is better" (examples of pov characters: Cloud, Squall, Garnet to a lesser degree, Lightning), you want something else. "Serious" anime writing these days is so spectacularly repetitive I often wonder how people can't get bored with it. There's the odd one out where this arc is actually well-made, but so many works have these kinds of characters as a focal point, even people like me who do enjoy anime get turned off.

To the question of whether or not XV will "feel like a Final Fantasy" - I don't think you can properly judge that until you've actually played it.

I agree with this post so much. While I definitely am one of those "anime people" (although, for the record, I'm extremely picky about what I like because there's so much garbage anime out there now compared to when I first got into it in the late 90's... then of course there's the insanely disgusting loli shit), I feel like it's time for another real life based FF. The XIII series, in my opinion, pretty much catered to the anime crowd. I'm one of those fans who enjoy them all. I mean, VI-X and even XII are all in close quarters with each other as far as how much I enjoyed them. But like AnGer-dono said, the same style gets old after a while. One of FF's goals as a series has always been for each game to be vastly different from one another. Granted, it doesn't always turn out that way but from how FFXV has shaped up I think they're really getting back to seeing that goal realized again. I was really skeptical about the game for a long time but I have to admit that I like pretty much all of what's been done with it. The only thing I can sit here and say that I'd really like to see is the ability to switch characters in battle--that's just something I've always really enjoyed in games. But it's fine. I don't have a problem placing faith in their vision for the game and seeing how it turns out. Most anything else I can think about bringing up would be classified as nitpicking (even to myself) so it's just not worth mentioning. I definitely want to say, however, that I have not been this excited for a FF game since VIII. I absolutely can hardly wait to play it!

 

[Koozek]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Nomura never fully "left" the project. He is still the main character designer, he has some oversight to the narrative and he is apparently still on the team as a producer. Tabata's introduction was also not as sudden as it is often seen as - he was co-director for about a year until the news that he'd be taking over broke and I don't see the decision as having been rash.

What I speculate happened was that SE executives firstly wanted someone to helm the project who could finish it in a timeframe that was manageable for the company and secondly wanted for Nomura to put his focus on other projects like FF VII: Remake and Kingdom Hearts III.

Nomura has no active role anymore. Tabata said last year that they aren't keeping Nomura updated about the recent progress. Nomura also didn't attend the Uncovered event where even Sakaguchi and Uematsu, who aren't working on FFXV, were on stage/on screen.

 

[Koozek]

[...]
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it confirmed that FFXV was still part of the FNC subseries earlier this week? Only that certain terms had been removed and additional elements added?

@PshycoNinja
As stated in GameInformer, and I believe said before, Final Fantasy XV is not apart of Fabula Nova Crystallis.

 

[NemesisSP]

Except that isn't what Tabata says. He says that it still uses the FNC mythos as a base.

In fact, in an interview last Gamescom, this is what he said about it. http://www.finaland.com/?rub=site&page=news&id=5516

 

[Rin]

A little late to the party and with a rather off-topic interjection, to boot:

Imagination and execution go hand in hand, but what one ultimately conjures up is rarely, if ever, how one originally envisioned the work to be. Visions can change or execution can go wrong.

Thinking of "what Versus could have been" or "what XV (Versus) ought to be" leads to nowhere because as members of the general public, we aren't privy to the full picture of what happened in these last 4 years. The transition from Versus XIII to XV is almost guaranteed to be more complicated than what we're all making it out to be and what Square Enix (Tabata) are willing to let us in on. We knew a lot of things about Versus XIII; at the same time, we knew very little.

It's one thing if Tabata (or Square Enix) has a vendetta against Nomura and is out to undo everything that Nomura and his team had built during the Versus days. Most of us, if not all, would probably agree that it is unlikely that Tabata is doing such a thing. His silence on Nomura's role (or lack thereof) in the last 4 years does strike me as odd, I'll admit.

At the end of the day, I trust that Square Enix ultimately made the most appropriate decisions with XV given their circumstances, even if I don't agree with everything that they've done with this project. However, I'm not the game developer whose reputation is possibly at stake; they are, so it's up to them to show off XV confidently and without regrets.

I promise to write something on-topic next time! Despite what I've said above, I'm actually really glad that you're pushing back, Reverse Vampire. I say this as a diehard XV fan.

 

[RetroPS4]

I think the biggest thing against Tabata not really honoring Nomura's vision of the game is that.... well he's trying to hard to do so, to the point of removing stuff he feels that they could screw up. Like with him revealing that they removed Stella because they were worried that fans would not accept that she had been changed to fit in with the game's new vision. However, I think by that same token he didn't think of the other side of it, that fans would be unhappy about the removal. We can deal with changes to the story as long as you don't tell us that these things have happened, or at least halfway explain it. Basically, I think as this was his first huge project that he didn't really think things through to start off with.

It may work out for the better and I do believe Tabata is sincere about honoring Nomura's vision. I just think he went about it the wrong way and rubbed fans the wrong way with it. I don't think we'd be discussing this if he hadn't decided to replace Stella completely just because he thought fans wouldn't be happy with them changing her. Or the change in tone and removal of entire levels of gameplay just to change the game to fit in with his vision. And in the end, I think Tabata let his own vision for the game get in the way of honoring the original director's vision.

I so agree with everything you said here, and the "halfway explain it" part is, I think the crux of what has caused confusion in the fans over this last year. Tabata has been rather inconsistent in some of his interviews, especially regarding the details of what we saw of Versus Eos and what XV Eos really contains. He said at first, its still the same game, and then later its a totally new game. It appears to me, as we see more and more of XV proper that it is both. Your first point that he is maybe "trying too hard to honor the vision" I think is illustrated in spades by the following comparisons from the game(s) and Kingsglaive.

From Uncovered event iphone case for XV (left-most)


Versus: (the skull Sigil is the same!!!) We havn't seen this image in any scenes of XV or Kingsglaive yet, but here it is on brand new FFXV merchandise, *KeanuWhoa!.gif*


Versus:
XV:


Versus:


XV:


Versus / Kingsglaive:





In the end I actually appreciate what is going on and am sort of in awe, but wow, it sure is unprecidented. Usually when a western game development project like oh, Prey is a good example, goes through a long dev-hell and subsequent restructuring, the original version is completely obliterated. In the case of this project, it almost seems like Versus (even though it was never a real completed game) got a remake, lol.

 

[Storm]

FFXV is mostly what Versus XIII was, it's not a "completely different" game like some people argue.

Even the little nods like Aranea jumping introduction or Regis welcoming gesture (both from Versus'2011 trailer) are there.
Luna is a new character that retained many traits of Stella, probably the most drastic removal (almost same look, the Nox Fleuret of the name, the fact that she is a noble).
Or like the setting around Lucis being exactly as Nomura described in a old interview.
Now we got a battle system almost identical as Versus XIII.

I think Tabata really made an effort to keep Versus XIII vision.

 

[RetroPS4]

FFXV is mostly what Versus XIII was, it's not a "completely different" game like some people argue.

Even the little nods like Aranea jumping introduction or Regis welcoming gesture (both from Versus'2011 trailer) are there.
Luna is a new character that retained many traits of Stella, probably the most drastic removal (almost same look, the Nox Fleuret of the name, the fact that she is a noble).
Or like the setting around Lucis being exactly as Nomura described in a old interview.
Now we got a battle system almost identical as Versus XIII.

I think Tabata really made an effort to keep Versus XIII vision.

It is just utterly odd, that Tabata-san has almost gone out of his way to say its a different game/project from before. Yet, yeah, my evidence I just posted and you quoted, seems to imply quite the opposite. Maybe we should chalk it up to Tabata's comment that he only has slept 3hrs a night basically for the least year or two. That can't be healthy

 

[NemesisSP]

It is just utterly odd, that Tabata-san has almost gone out of his way to say its a different game/project from before. Yet, yeah, my evidence I just posted and you quoted, seems to imply quite the opposite. Maybe we should chalk it up to Tabata's comment that he only has slept 3hrs a night basically for the least year or two. That can't be healthy

If this is true, it may also explain Tabata's inconsistent statements. Look, I'm trying to be fair to the guy, but I do believe he is trying too much to completely reinvent a game that (even if it wasn't finished to begin with) already had a vision and different tone to it. And as Rin pointed out, it is rather unfair to base the game on what could have been or what should be, but it is hard to do so in this case. While not a lot of information was released about Versus XIII, we were given an idea of what the over all game was going to be like, 'dark, moody and perhaps tragic, while still having a strong sense of friendship and human characters'. While many of these things are still in the game, that isn't the issue. The issue isn't that he changed these things.

I think the issue is how polarizing he comes off as. For many of us, he comes off as friendly, driven and really wanting to inject new life in a series that, whether you want to admit it or not, has polarized the fanbase the past few years. The other sees him maybe a little condescending, egotistical and made some really moronic and contradictory statements. And I think he hasn't helped out any with the latter interpretation. As has been pointed out, he has barely mentioned Nomura at all and at times has taken full credit for a world that... let's face it, he didn't create to begin with.

When he says that things like Stella and the original game weren't strong enough, it feels more like he's saying he knows better about Nomura's world than Nomura would have. And a lot of people do get really aggravated when someone comes into a project that was the brainchild of another person and then goes around changing a lot of stuff just because they're now in charge. And his comments and attitude haven't helped. Many like him, many don't and its his own fault for that. He has said many polarizing things in a way that's unintentionally condescending. Let's be honest, maybe saying that people shouldn't care too much about Stella being removed (not an exact quote, just an example of tone) isn't the best way to get on the good side of those same fans that you recently revealed were one of the main reasons she was removed.

I do sympathize with the guy, though. I know how it feels to be overworked and exhausted.