FFXII team are the only team that still care about RPG stats!

[1Truth2Lies]

It's an unfortunate turn of events when story is viewed as so important in mainline FF that the developers no longer care about the RPG matrix enough to provide loads of different stats that influence battle and player customisation. This is my new gripe with FFXV. I know I said I wouldn't openly diss the game anymore, but I have to get this off my chest.

FFXV only has 2 stats influencing battle, just like FFXIII did. Only 2 stats. These are Attack and Defense; that's it. In a AAA, big budget RPG, that's pure garbage. I don't care what any FFXV fan says to defend this, as only having only 2 stats is truly pathetic. It shows that developers of this game don't care about the RPG matrix, just like the team behind FFXIII. To put it in perspective, the original Final Fantasy on NES had 5 base stats influencing battle. That was a NES game.

The RPG matrix stats are surrounded by a red box:

For anybody like me that loves stat heavy RPG experiences, FFXV has just become worthless.

I'm OK with FF putting story at the forefront, but it should never be at the expense of actual RPG gameplay. That's one of the reasons JRPGs lost the crown to WRPGs last-gen. How could FFXV ignore this?

It would seem that only the FFXII team (Business Division 5) still care about RPG gameplay being as important as graphics and story. Both FFXII and FFXIV ARR have huge amount of stats (the later having more than any FF made to date). FFXII, an offline game, had more stats affecting battle than FFXI, an MMORPG. That was really unprecedented. FFXII had 9 stats influencing battle, while FFXI had 7.

As you can see from both FFXII and FFXIV ARR, the FFXII team still put a lot of effort into the RPG matrix by providing a lot of different stats which influence battle.

Both FFXIII (Business Division 1) and FFXV (Business Division 2) only have 2 stats influencing battle. That's just utter garbage. These games clearly are more style than substance. It seems that 1st Production Department (BD1 - BD4) are caring more about graphics and story over gameplay with mainline FF. They don't bother with the RPG matrix in their mainline games. However, the FFXII team (BD5) still a care about the RPG matrix.

Considering that FFXVI is likely also by BD5, it will be interesting to see if it has more stats affecting battle than even FFXIV ARR does. That would be insane, but knowing Ito's love for deep RPG gameplay, it's not out of the question. After all, with FFXII, he went out of his way to top the stats affecting battles in FFXI, even despite FFXI being a MMO and using the added memory of the PS2 HDD. This man. This fucking man. LOL!

I'm beginning to see why Naoki Yoshida believes FFXV will not be enough to restore the mainline series to greatness. It's just not doing enough from a gameplay perspective to reclaim the crown from WRPGs.

 

[LeonBlade]

I'm beginning to see why Naoki Yoshida believes FFXV will not be enough to restore the mainline series to greatness. It's just not doing enough to reclaim to crown from WRPGs.

They wouldn't show the full stats on the main menu it would be too much information to know for sure what all the stat weights are. We still have a lot to see about XV, but I agree that the XII team care about stats and so do I.

 

[Lulcielid]

Having 2 stats (attack and defense in this case) vs 7/9 stats makes as much diference as 99 or 200 being your max level cap.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

They wouldn't show the full stats on the main menu it would be too much information to know for sure what all the stat weights are. We still have a lot to see about XV, but I agree that the XII team care about stats and so do I.

Yes, that's the only saving grace right now. Hopefully, that is just a basic preview of the full list of stats which are hidden deeper in the UI. However, I've never seen a mainline FF game show stats in the main menu before now. This is what leads me to believe those are the real stats. Furthermore, Tabata has confirmed that magic is not tied to stats in FFXV, which means it wouldn't need a magic attack and magic defense stat to represent it. When Famitsu asked if this meant magic in FFXV would act like the Draw system from FFVIII, he said it was completely different from that.

I hope there are more stats then just Attack and Defend in FFXV, as if not, that will make my pessimism for it sink even lower than it is already. At this point, it seems I'll just be sticking to FFXIV until FFXVI is announced.

Having 2 stats (attack and defense in this case) vs 7/9 stats makes as much diference as 99 or 200 being your max level cap.

Nope. The stats of the RPG matrix influence all aspects of battle. Your level cap is only influenced by how much EXP you've obtained.

 

[LeonBlade]

At this point, it seems I'll just be sticking to FFXIV until FFXVI is announced.

Spoiler

What server are you on?

 

[Sora96]

I believe the sequels had a bit more, but yes you're right. And in regards to XV, from the demo the battle system isn't all that great imo. I much preferred LR's and Type-0's.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

Spoiler

What server are you on?

Spoiler

Data Center: Gaia - World: Ultima. I plan to move once EU servers launch, though!

Comparing the opening pause menu of FFXV to the equipment menu page of FFXII is unfair. FFXII's opening pause menu doesn't show all the RPG stats of per party member for your information.

And plus, you can't really jump to the conclusion that FFXV does not care for RPG stats because we don't know how deep the gameplay system for FFXV is gonna be like yet as well as the fact that the menu is still a work in progress.

Even though it's 70% in completion, it could completely mean something different that's known within the dev team such as implementing additional information on certain menu pages etc.

But most of all, you can't compare RPG stats of an Active Time Based battle system to RPG stats of an Action RPG battle system as there will be certain elements influencing certain gameplay systems.

There is nothing wrong with having less RPG stats in an ARPG or even a JRPG. If they have some unique elements in their battle system to provide a deep & engaging experience, there'd be no point in complaining the RPG stats to begin with.

The same with FFXIII; Though contains less RPG stats, the bread and butter of the gameplay system was the Paradigm Shift mechanic where it made the battles fast paced and producing new forms of strategies to fight against enemies.

Here comes the FFXV defense force. LOL! Sorry, but I don't want to start a war here. I just wanted to voice my opinion and that's that. I hope I didn't cause too much offense by dissing a game you're hyped for, but as somebody that values the RPG matrix, FFXV is now looking even more less promising than it already was.

No mainline FF has shown stats on the main menu, which leads me to believe those are really FFXV's only 2 stats. Why show only a few on the main menu and have the player go digging in the UI to see the rest?

We know that magic is not based on stats, so that's out the way. As for FFXV gameplay being "deep", I find that very unlikely due to how little of a RPG matrix is influencing battle and my experience with the AXB in Episode Duscae.

Vagrant Story was an Action RPG and it had more stats influencing battle than FFXI, which was an MMORPG. LOL! It also had a battle system and weapons system way more complex and comprehensive than FFXV does. They're not even in the same league, yet Vagrant Story was a PS1 game!

FFXIII had only 2 stats and the Paradigm Shift system was not even that "deep". You couldn't edit the AI of each Paradigm. FFXII had 9 stats and also the Gambit system, which could be customized and edited to the player's liking. Both games are not even on the same level in gameplay depth, even if you take the stats out of the picture.

 

[Sora96]

Spoiler

Data Center: Gaia - World: Ultima. I plan to move once EU servers launch, though!

Here comes the FFXV defense force. LOL! Sorry, but I don't want to start a war here. I just wanted to voice my opinion and that's that. I hope I didn't cause too much offense by dissing a game you're hyped for, but as somebody that values the RPG matrix, FFXV is now looking even more less promising than it already was.

No mainline FF has shown stats on the main menu, which leads me to believe those are really FFXV's only 2 stats. Why show only a few on the main menu and have the player go digging in the UI to see the rest?

We know that magic is not based on stats, so that's out the way. As for FFXV gameplay being "deep", I find that very unlikely due to how little of a RPG matrix is influencing battle and my experience with the AXB in Episode Duscae.

Vagrant Story was an Action RPG and it had more stats influencing battle than FFXI, which was an MMORPG. LOL! It also had a battle system and weapons system way more complex and comprehensive than FFXV does. They're not even in the same league, yet Vagrant Story was a PS1 game!

FFXIII had only 2 stats and the Paradigm Shift system was not even that "deep". You couldn't edit the AI of each Paradigm. FFXII had 9 stats and also the Gambit system, which could be customized and edited to the player's liking. Both games are not even on the same level in gameplay depth, even if you take the stats out of the picture.

You might be right. It looks alarmingly like the main menu of the KH games.

 

[LeonBlade]

You might be right. It looks alarmingly like the main menu of the KH games.

Yeah, I think it looks a lot like the main menu of KH with the character pictures on the side and all.

 

[Kagari]

This should surprise no one. The guy who was working on the UI previously actually worked on the KH series. He has since left SE.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

You might be right. It looks alarmingly like the main menu of the KH games.

Yeah, I think it looks a lot like the main menu of KH with the character pictures on the side and all.

Good observation. I thought both KH1 and KH2 had a very similar UI. Below is the UI from KH1. However, as you can see, there's a Status screen to see more info.

However, when you go to this Status screen, you'll find that Sora has only 2 stats, just like the cast of FFXV. These two stats are again Attack and Defense. Maybe there's something I'm missing here?

Also, there's now an English translation of the FFXV UI floating about online which I've discovered. It confirms that FFXV doesn't have a Status option. That makes it more likely that Attack and Defend really are the only two stats in FFXV.

This should surprise no one. The guy who was working on the UI previously actually worked on the KH series. He has since left SE.

That doesn't explain why, just like FFXIII, FFXV has lower RPG stat matrix than even the first Final Fantasy on NES.

 

[Sora96]

This should surprise no one. The guy who was working on the UI previously actually worked on the KH series. He has since left SE.

Of course, most of the designers from KH1, KH2 & X-2 went onto Versus XIII.

 

[coffee-san]

I think more stat influence wouldn't hurt in FF, but with the constant catering to casual players nowadays, I feel like we might not get much in this regard.

Making an indictment on XV currently, I'm not too sure about yet.
But I don't expect it to be stat-heavy. High-action JRPGs don't typically relegate much to stats outside of ATK/DEF/MAG (maybe AGI) and usually just leaves much open to player skill/luck and/or usually supplement this lack of stats with passive skills.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

I think more stat influence wouldn't hurt in FF, but with the constant catering to casual players nowadays, I feel like we might not get much in this regard.

Making an indictment on XV currently, I'm not too sure about yet.
But I don't expect it to be stat-heavy. High-action JRPGs don't typically relegate much to stats outside of ATK/DEF/MAG (maybe AGI) and usually just leaves much open to player skill/luck and/or usually supplement this lack of stats with passive skills.

Skyrim has 18 different stats that operates as skills the player can level up. This many stats in one game is more than any FF ever created. Skyrim has shipped over 20 million worldwide as of January 2014. The highest selling Final fantasy is FFVII, with 11 million sold. Therefore, I think more stats in FF has a better chance of making the series sell more, not less stats. It just blows my mind that another mainline FF will again have only 2 stats like FFXIII. It's as if Tabata learned nothing from modern WRPGs like Fallout 3, Skyrim, Mass Effect 2, and Dragon Age.

Even the first Pokemon games on GameBoy have more stats for each Pokemon than the cast of FFXV. That's just ridiculous! Ito needs to make sure FFXVI has gameplay depth and and extensive stat matrix that lifts offline FF out from the "2 stats" depths that both FFXIII and FFXV have placed it in.

 

[coffee-san]

Skyrim has 18 different stats that operates as skills the player can level up. This many stats in one game is more than any FF ever created. Skyrim has shipped over 20 million worldwide as of January 2014. Therefore, I think more stats in FF has a better chance of making the series sell more than less stats. It just blows my mind that another mainline FF will again have only 2 stats like FFXIII. It's as if Tabata learned nothing from modern WRPGs like Skyrim, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age.

No idea how much influence Tabata is drawing from WRPGs other than open exploration (just seems like he's borrowing concepts from XII more than applying/adapting those from WRPGs, tbh.)

I feel like as long as FF games continue to base their foundation solely on already established systems like ATB and KH's battle system structure, that have consistently been less focused on stats, there's only a modicum of a chance that stat-based gameplay (akin to XII) in mothership FF titles will happen again or become standard.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

No idea how much influence Tabata is drawing from WRPGs other than open exploration (just seems like he's borrowing concepts from XII more than applying/adapting those from WRPGs, tbh.)

I feel like as long as FF games continue to base their foundation solely on already established systems like ATB and KH's battle system structure, that have consistently been less focused on stats, there's only a modicum of a chance that stat-based gameplay (akin to XII) in mothership FF titles will happen again or become standard.

Tabata has said the battle system in FFXV is mostly based on Type-0, which outside magic, was also based on the two stats of Attack and Defense.

FF needs to start building on the foundation of deep battle systems, not weak ones. ATB was deep in FFIV and if you check the status screens of any mainline FF using ATB since then, you'll see a variety of stats that influence battle. FFXIII and FFXV are only using two stats in their RPG stat matrix. The FFXII battle system called ADB needs to be evolved and used in FFXVI, as that will allow a battle system with loads of stats to return to the mainline series outside the MMOs. It's high time for mainline FF gameplay to stop being style over substance.

 

[coffee-san]

Tabata has said the battle system in FFXV is mostly based on Type-0, which outside magic, was also based on the two stats of Attack and Defense.

FF needs to start building on the foundation of deep battle systems, not weak ones. ATB was deep in FFIV and if you check the status screens of any mainline FF using ATB since then, you'll see a variety of stats that influence battle. FFXIII and FFXV are only using two stats in their RPG stat matrix. The FFXII battle system called ADB needs to be evolved and used in FFXVI, as that will allow a battle system with loads of stats to return to the mainline series outside the MMOs. It's high time for mainline FF gameplay to stop being style over substance.

Agreed.
But as far as previous games, though there are a plethora of stats, a LOT of them really don't account for much outside of your core P.ATK/DEF M.POW/DEF stats (and sometimes AGI). It's pretty much the same formula as it is now (they've just compounded all the stats between ATK. DEF. MAG into overarching stats), there's just the "illusion of inclusion" from earlier games that's missing.

XII was really the only FF game where each stat was significant.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

Agreed.
But as far as previous games, though there are a plethora of stats, a LOT of them really don't account for much outside of your core P.ATK/DEF M.POW/DEF stats (and sometimes AGI). It's pretty much the same formula as it is now (they've just compounded all the stats between ATK. DEF. MAG into overarching stats), there's just the "illusion of inclusion" from earlier games that's missing.

XII was really the only FF game where each stat was significant.

I can agree with this, but only on your stance of significance. Every FF that used ATB had a number of stats that all influenced battle.

Let me use FFVII for example. There's 13 different stats that influence battle, with 3 of these being percentages. This is more than even FFXII. These were not superficial stats either, as they all influenced battle in their own way. Furthermore, you could get items in the game that allowed you to get each stat up to 255. I remember doing this back in the day, just to get 100% completion. Many other FFVII players did it, too, maybe even you. Basically, maxing the stats was part of the gameplay experience and an extra aspect to the character growth mechanic. If FFVII only had two stats like FFXV does, there would have been significant less reward and sense of accomplishment in maxing each character's stats.

Here is the status screen of FFIX. The speed of ATB in this game was much slower than past iterations of ATB, which meant the Speed stat was more important than any past version of ATB. Players that wanted an ATB gauge that filled up quicker would find items and equipment that made the Speed stat higher so the gauge filled faster in battle.

Basically, even though stats were really significant in FFXII, the RPG stat matrix of FFVII and FFIX still had a bearing on players. The same can be said for all FF games that used ATB. With FFXV, I don't see any sense of accomplishment players will feel by maxing out only 2 stats. I still remember how proud I felt when I completely maxed out all Cloud's stats in FFVII. I can't see myself feeling that with Noctis' only Attack and Defense stats.

 

[coffee-san]

I can agree with this, but only on your stance of significance. Every FF that used ATB had a number of stats that all influenced battle. Let me use FFVII for example. That's 10 different stats that influence battle, with 3 being percentages. This is more than even FFXII. These were not superficial stats either, as they all influenced battle in their own way. Furthermore, you could get items in the game that allowed you to get each stat up to 255. I remember doing this back in the day, just to get 100% completion. Many other FFVII players did it, too, maybe even you. Basically, maxing the stats was part of the gameplay experience and an aspect of the RPG character growth mechanic. If FFVII only has two stats like FFXV, there would have been significant less reward and sense of accomplishment in maxing each character's stats.

Here is the status screen of FFIX. The speed of ATB in this game was much slower than past iterations of ATB, which meant the Speed stat was more important than any past version of ATB. Players that wanted an ATB gauge that filled up quicker would find items and equipment to make the Speed stat higher so the gauge filled faster in battle.

Basically, even though stats were really significant in FFXII, the RPG stat matrix of FFVII and FFIX still had a bearing on players. With FFXV, I don't see the sense of accomplishment players will feel by maxing out only 2 stats. I still remember how proud I felt when I completely maxed out all Cloud's stats in FFVII.

No, my point still stands.
FF core stats has always been: ATK/DEF, M.ATK/DEF, and AGI/Speed (sometimes).
In normal playthroughs, these are always the focus, everything else is really just fodder. JRPG standard basically, as you progress through the game, level up, find better items, things will scale/balance out making the importance of stats outside the core ones negligible.

Challenge runs are different, but you really have to go out of your way and play FFVII outside of how it's intended to be played for Luck, Vitality, Attack%, Def% to have any significance. VI, VII, VIII, IX, all guilty of this.
Basically, stat-building has never really been a thing in FF before XII, we got a slight taste of it in X though.

But as it pertains to player perception and feeling rewarded by being able to max out stats, I definitely agree with you a bit. Grouping a bunch of stats into one and relegating it to leveling up and passives is zzzz, but I'd rather have that than a bunch of stats that are just arbitrarily there lol.

 

[1Truth2Lies]

No, my point still stands.
FF core stats has always been: ATK/DEF, M.ATK/DEF, and AGI/Speed (sometimes).
In normal playthroughs, these are always the focus, everything else is really just fodder. JRPG standard basically, as you progress through the game, level up, find better items, things will scale/balance out making the importance of stats outside the core ones negligible.

Challenge runs are different, but you really have to go out of your way and play FFVII outside of how it's intended to be played for Luck, Vitality, Attack%, Def% to have any significance. VI, VII, VIII, IX, all guilty of this.
Basically, stat-building has never really been a thing in FF before XII, we got a slight taste of it in X though.

But as it pertains to player perception and feeling rewarded by being able to max out stats, I definitely agree with you a bit. Grouping a bunch of stats into one and relegating it to leveling up and passives is zzzz, but I'd rather have that than a bunch of stats that are just arbitrarily there lol.

You have to wonder how stat-building being so important in XII would be succeeded by having only two stats in FFXIII. Similarly, the sizeable stat matrix of FFXIV (the biggest seen in a FF to date) being succeeded by again only having two stats in FFXV. At least in the case of FFXII, it actually made its stat matrix larger than FFXI.

With regards to FF core stats and how they influence the game, I agree with you. The stats were not that significant during normal playthroughs. However, I think the illusion of them being there made it feel like they important. Being able to max out these stats is just a post-game activity, but it does feel rewarding when you complete max every attribute of a character. You really feel that you've conquered the game by doing so.

The FFXII battle system, and its reliance on stat-building, needs to return and give us another offline FF with a deep and rewarding RPG stat matrix to experiment with.