FFXV Ultimania lore discussion thread

[Jubileus]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXV/comments/5mgwn8/spoilers_more_scenario_ultimania_content/

reading now

edit: nothing new but it seems in japanese the messengers are referred as angels, which makes sense given the cosmogony illustration that luna showed to noctis.

Just finished reading it. Great share and nice find! Very insightful indeed.

If I recall correctly, Bahamut was the one who chose the first Oracle.

It was stated in the Cosmogony in the Chocobo Post on a chair.

 

[Storm]

someone got a in-game conversation where prompto asks if noctis magic powers drain him too much, in the end he says that's probably why he always sleepy/tired.

given the royal weapons drain hp, that actually can be the reason.

 

[Nova]

I kind of love how personal of a villain Ardyn ended up being. For all his superhuman capabilities and mythic import, he's really just a man whose bitterness got twisted into outright sadism such that Noct's suffering is the only thing that will truly satisfy him. Even then, Noct doesn't matter as a person to Ardyn; he's important only because of what he represents. (Ardyn stringing up corpses in the throne room is a great way to show how he thinks, really, because it's sort of implicit that it doesn't even matter to him whether his playthings are alive or dead. You know he'd string Noct up there if he won.)

And yet, even though he tortures Noct -- and metatextually tortures us as players -- he still manages to remain a figure of pity, thanks to his original good intentions and the fact that his motivations never really fall outside the realm of human nature gone horribly wrong. He's not looking to become a god or destroy everything. He just wants to make the symbol of everything that wronged him suffer, regardless of the consequences.

I'm definitely glad to have it confirmed that he wasn't trying to do anything altruistic by forcing Noct to destroy him, in any case. xD

Honestly, reading this made how much of a tradegy Ardyn became amongst the callous shit i pulled. Especially compared to someone like Sephroth.

 

[Ikkin]

Honestly, reading this made how much of a tradegy Ardyn became amongst the callous shit i pulled. Especially compared to someone like Sephroth.

Sephiroth's an interesting comparison, really, because while he's sympathetic before the Nibelheim incident, there's a clear disconnect in his character when he "goes mad" that allows him to behave in ways that aren't meaningfully human. (My headcanon is that he basically just snapped due to a week with no sleep. =P ) Kefka's similar in that regard, though he's never actually shown in a sympathetic light.

Ardyn doesn't have that disconnect. As sick and twisted as he is, there's never any question of what lead him down the path he chose -- he was wronged and wants revenge, end of story.

 

[Jubileus]

I'd wager that if they delve more into Ardyn's history, some players will actually be rooting for him to win!

.. which is kinda pointless since he does actually win in the end xD

There's a piece of art of him in the Art Book where he's strung up half naked and being "worshipped?" by people. There's also another one where he's riding down the street on a chocobo tipping his hat off to the cheering crowd.

Those two images alone have created enough intrigue and curiosity in me that I wouldn't mind a DLC all about him. Heck I'd pay for it lol.

 

[SonOfEtro]

Sephiroth's an interesting comparison, really, because while he's sympathetic before the Nibelheim incident, there's a clear disconnect in his character when he "goes mad" that allows him to behave in ways that aren't meaningfully human. (My headcanon is that he basically just snapped due to a week with no sleep. =P )

I didn't really connect with him until Crisis Core, when I saw he was a descent if taciturn man. (and my head canon is that the Jenova cells inside him began warping his mind as he absorbed the true knowledge about his origins)

Yes, Ardyn has comparisons with both Sephiroth and Kefka. If he weren't such a good villain on his own, I'd say Tabata's team had been cribbing a bit too much from the past .

 

[SonOfEtro]

edit: nothing new but it seems in japanese the messengers are referred as angels, which makes sense given the cosmogony illustration that luna showed to noctis.

Yeah, it does, that frame in the Cosmogony makes a lot more sense.

It reminds me somewhat of the job the localizers did on Drakengard: they turned the Church of Angels/Angels/God into Cult of Watchers/Watchers/Pantheon of deities. A pity in Drakengard's case, as it diminishes some of its impact.

 

[Ikkin]

I didn't really connect with him until Crisis Core, when I saw he was a descent if taciturn man. (and my head canon is that the Jenova cells inside him began warping his mind as he absorbed the true knowledge about his origins)

Yes, Ardyn has comparisons with both Sephiroth and Kefka. If he weren't such a good villain on his own, I'd say Tabata's team had been cribbing a bit too much from the past .

FFVII didn't really offer much to work with in that regard. It makes perfect sense that you'd connect with him more in Crisis Core, since humanizing him was one of the goals of that game as a prequel.

I'd say Ardyn exists more in contrast to Kefka and Sephiroth than as a full parallel to them, honestly. Kind of a, "Here's what a more grounded version of this might look like" sort of thing.

Yeah, it does, that frame in the Cosmogony makes a lot more sense.

It reminds me somewhat of the job the localizers did on Drakengard: they turned the Church of Angels/Angels/God into Cult of Watchers/Watchers/Pantheon of deities. A pity in Drakengard's case, as it diminishes some of its impact.

I thought the figure in the Cosmogony illustration was

Spoiler

Bahamut's human form. Wasn't he the one who gave the Crystal to the King?

As for the localization, I think it might have just been a matter of choosing a word that implied the same thing without being quite as overt about it. "Angel" means messenger, after all. FFXV makes a lot of Christian references (King of Kings, Providence, etc.) and doesn't seem particularly concerned with being taken as sacrilegious; it just seems to prefer language that sounds more vague and mythic over on-the-nose namedropping.

 

[SonOfEtro]

FFVII didn't really offer much to work with in that regard. It makes perfect sense that you'd connect with him more in Crisis Core, since humanizing him was one of the goals of that game as a prequel.

I'd say Ardyn exists more in contrast to Kefka and Sephiroth than as a full parallel to them, honestly. Kind of a, "Here's what a more grounded version of this might look like" sort of thing.



I thought the figure in the Cosmogony illustration was

Spoiler

Bahamut's human form. Wasn't he the one who gave the Crystal to the King?

As for the localization, I think it might have just been a matter of choosing a word that implied the same thing without being quite as overt about it. "Angel" means messenger, after all. FFXV makes a lot of Christian references (King of Kings, Providence, etc.) and doesn't seem particularly concerned with being taken as sacrilegious; it just seems to prefer language that sounds more vague and mythic over on-the-nose namedropping.

The image in question is a two-page illustration that Luna shows Noctis during the flashback to their childhood where they make their promise: Noctis will fulfill his duty as the True King, and Luna will guide him as the Oracle. It's at a strange angle, but you can see angelic figures descending towards the King and Oracle.

 

[Ikkin]

The image in question is a two-page illustration that Luna shows Noctis during the flashback to their childhood where they make their promise: Noctis will fulfill his duty as the True King, and Luna will guide him as the Oracle. It's at a strange angle, but you can see angelic figures descending towards the King and Oracle.

Oh, okay. I didn't notice that. XD;

 

[Jubileus]

The image in question is a two-page illustration that Luna shows Noctis during the flashback to their childhood where they make their promise: Noctis will fulfill his duty as the True King, and Luna will guide him as the Oracle. It's at a strange angle, but you can see angelic figures descending towards the King and Oracle.

Sounds quite interesting. You got a link to this picture?

 

[All Hail King Bimpy]

Bahamut's human form. Wasn't he the one who gave the Crystal to the King?

Yes. He gave Lucaii the Crystal. I assume because they helped fight along his side during the Great War. I dunno. He also chose the first Oracle, giving her his Trident. He decided Noctis should be the True King.

 

[SonOfEtro]

Sounds quite interesting. You got a link to this picture?

I haven't got a picture. But here's a video with the scene in question that I found on YouTube. The relevant part starts around around 2:23.

 

[Jubileus]

I haven't got a picture. But here's a video with the scene in question that I found on YouTube. The relevant part starts around around 2:23.

Thanks.

Took a screenshot and uploaded it.

Very interesting picture. I do hope that they will add in more scenes of the pages within the book. Perhaps an option where we can flip through it's pages and read it for ourselves?

http://imgur.com/g4fzzxb

 

[Jubileus]

So I see Gentiana on the right, an Oracle on the far left, and... Ardyn when he was King? Or is that another King?

Thoughts?

 

[Storm]

Thanks.

Took a screenshot and uploaded it.

Very interesting picture. I do hope that they will add in more scenes of the pages within the book. Perhaps an option where we can flip through it's pages and read it for ourselves?

http://imgur.com/g4fzzxb

wut, looks like pryna and umbra have wings in the picture

in fact they are messengers in the game, so i guess they can take any form they want?

 

[Jubileus]

I uploaded it the "right way up" so that it's easier to look at.

http://imgur.com/a/QnEbY

If Umbra and Pryna are Messengers too, then Robert Ferrari saying that Umbra had another form and could turn into a ninja like character was probably scrapped, as he said.

Still wondering if that's Ardyn or not. Hmmm.

 

[SonOfEtro]

Still wondering if that's Ardyn or not. Hmmm.

It could be Ardyn, or it could be whoever originally usurped him after his healing tactic made him ineligible for the Astrals' plans. The Cosmogony is the "official" version of things, so even if that's Ardyn, he would have been written out of things.

 

[Storm]

I uploaded it the "right way up" so that it's easier to look at.

http://imgur.com/a/QnEbY

If Umbra and Pryna are Messengers too, then Robert Ferrari saying that Umbra had another form and could turn into a ninja like character was probably scrapped, as he said.

Still wondering if that's Ardyn or not. Hmmm.

i think messengers are spiritual entities that can materialize the way they want, so them having human forms wouldn't be far fetched

anyway, if i understood that right, Shiva passed herself as a "fake" messenger just to hid from the empire?

 

[Ikkin]

It could be Ardyn, or it could be whoever originally usurped him after his healing tactic made him ineligible for the Astrals' plans. The Cosmogony is the "official" version of things, so even if that's Ardyn, he would have been written out of things.

The way Ardyn talked made it seem like the Crystal was already a thing and he had it taken away from him rather than simply not having received it in the first place. So I kind of thought that he'd have been a descendant of the king in the picture rather than either that king or the king before him.

i think messengers are spiritual entities that can materialize the way they want, so them having human forms wouldn't be far fetched

anyway, if i understood that right, Shiva passed herself as a "fake" messenger just to hid from the empire?

Gentiana's page talks about her as if she's a distinct entity. She's one of the 24, not a fake #25 created by Shiva to hide her identity. I think the idea is that Shiva is channeled through her rather than that she actually is Shiva.