Ch13+14: Niflheim &The Origin of Daemons Story Finds

[Jubileus]

Thanks for this list. I paid attention to the lore while playing Chapter 13. The story made slogging through the Ring-only part worth it -- and while it was clunky, it was nowhere near as bad as people made it out to be.

It's quite the nod to the game's FNC roots. In FFXIII, the entirety of Gran Pulse was devoid of human life - having all been turned to C'eith/Daemons/Bad Guys.

Yeah people extremely over exaggerated how "bad" the chapter was. It was nowhere near "atrocious" or "the worst idea in gaming eveeer!"

It was long yes and a tad tedious, but learning about the lore made it worthwhile to me. I was actively searching for documents in every room I went into so the fact that it kept my interest is good enough for me.

Although I do welcome the changes for the chapter that the team are planning for it.

 

[All Hail King Bimpy]

I fingered it out. The world building takes a minimalist approach. Tabata depicted a specific experience about this stuff rather than actually tell a specific story about this stuff. The Astrals, the war, the crystal, magic, dammaons, and so on are day-to-day things laying in the background until we encounter them. To Noctis most of all they are at first folk tales he wants no part of. They come out when we need to learn more about the world's state, but for the most part we play within that state as it's already is. this is why the script describes how the cast feels about the minutia we all think about more than everything else unless that stuff confronts them directly.

an opposite game would be tales of zestiria. for 90% of the game players encounter scenes dedicated just to the world building. dialogue after dialogue entails details about the world's state. characters intentionally perform actions to reveal more about that state. that is the story. not nesscerliy in the journey itself.

a lot of XV makes sense now after I put things together for the best logical outcome for our gaming involvement. its requires a different thought process

 

[Jubileus]

It seems the minimalist approach isn't exactly appreciated nor welcome judging from people's response in regards to the lore and story for the game.

Have you played FFX or FFX-2?

There's an old man named Maechaen in it, and he's a thousand year old scholar. Throughout the games, he recounts the history of Spira to Tidus (or us, the player) so we can learn more history and backstory for the game.

Doesn't take very long but we learned a lot by conversing with him.

I think a concept like this applied to FFXV would be a great addition.

Edit: actually it could be Gentiana herself who recounts the history of Eos to Noctis and the group. She was there since the very beginning after all.

 

[Storm]

It seems the minimalist approach isn't exactly appreciated nor welcome judging from people's response in regards to the lore and story for the game.

Have you played FFX or FFX-2?

There's an old man named Maechaen in it, and he's a thousand year old scholar. Throughout the games, he recounts the history of Spira to Tidus (or us, the player) so we can learn more history and backstory for the game.

Doesn't take very long but we learned a lot by conversing with him.

I think a concept like this applied to FFXV would be a great addition.

Edit: actually it could be Gentiana herself who recounts the history of Eos to Noctis and the group. She was there since the very beginning after all.

the barebones lore giving the quantity of sidequests is baffling.

this is something they got right in FFX, FFXII, XIII games, suddenly they stumble on one of my favorite aspects.

 

[Jubileus]

the barebones lore giving the quantity of sidequests is baffling.

this is something they got right in FFX, FFXII, XIII games, suddenly they stumble on one of my favorite aspects.

I was a bit surprised they didn't take advantage of the side quests to expand upon the lore. They were fun despite being fetch quests though.

Hopefully now, after release and the internet has erupted with story related criticisms, they will add these within the year.

 

[All Hail King Bimpy]

I was a bit surprised they didn't take advantage of the side quests to expand upon the lore. They were fun despite being fetch quests though.

Hopefully now, after release and the internet has erupted with story related criticisms, they will add these within the year

1: I think the criticism is irrelevant because Tabaata planned CHARACTER based expansion packs long before Final Fantasy XV's release.

2: A lot of people, including me, are bringing up the word LORE, generalizing it as a synonym for backstory, world building, and story. Worldbuilding is the revelation of a story-world shown either indirectly or directly through story itself. A story as I know it is simple: a character chases after an aspiration, only to realize the pursuit creates a complication. The complication is solved by the third act. During any time spent on solving the complication, he or she changes. The pursuit itself does not have to be the root of conflict but often is. Story contains emotionalism, dialogue, action, conflict and other components that storytellers present one after another in a manner for us to go on a journey with. Story is alive. We only encounter what the storyteller wants us to and what's encountered should not serve worldbuilding. Story is not worldbulding's slave. Those characters should not drop previous characterization just to spew out richer details about everything and anything inside the story-world (case point: almost the entirety of The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel II and the later half of Tales of Xillia II's main mission). When they become encyclopedias it's hard to care for them. This is why worldbuilding deals with the specifies of food, clothing, transportation, magical systems, weapons, and even what type of dragons everyone rides. The information about them is information, nothing more. How they are used by the story driving components is what matters most. Worldbuilding alone gives us a static and ego-driven story, ego driven because the storyteller wants to show how big their imagination is. Yes for some stories the world itself is a character. You may need a 400 page bible summarizing that world because it's way too much information to coherently be used in a story format (both Marvel and DC comics). They might also not be relevant to how we experience the story's components in a personal, inanimate way. You may have heard this before: only use details the audience needs to know to understand the story. Many RPGs throw out information after information though it doesn't contribute to the dramatic value uncovered in story. It's trivia. On the other hand, there are RPGs where worldbuilding hardly explains why events are happening now. Why is hell breaking loose now, as opposed to twenty years ago? Clarity my friend. When the story moves in ways purely arbitrary then the worldbuilding must be reworked. Theme reacting to worldbuilding is good. Character using a worldbuilding device is good. However, there should be a logical connection between the two. There is an insane superpowered, magical technology. Why does one society go Hilter because of it? In Warframe Grakata is the Grineers preferred weapon, but there's no explanation as to why Grineers prefer the weapon. The Infested are discovered through a quest, but there is no explanation as to why they exist. There is the Corpus Faction, but no explanation as to what they do and who founded it. Missing details makes for a confusing story-world. That would be a good time to drop action and dialogue characterized entertainingly for description and exposition.

Now let me get to lore. Over the course of a story, several facts accumulate by the people inhabiting said story-world. It's the recorded knowledge of their culture. For RPGs we receive that stuff from variations of codexs.

Backstory is story prior to the current story. It doesn't have to be full blown shown.

3: The point here is to bring all four together for consistency. Can we believe the story-world? Can we believe what the characters desire and the conflict against them?

4: Final Fantasy XV has a guidebook that contains lore not put into the game's script. That's basically a bible. We uncover lore in small bits that are only pertinent to the core happenings that surround the story. And the story is about Nocti's adventure towards ending an apocalypse. Final Fantasy X has tons of details about Spira, for example. But Auron finding Lord Mi'ihen's statue means nothing for his character since it has no story. He no reaction towards it. Finding Celestial Weapons are irrelevant to the characters who they end up with. The extra Aeons and Temples have zero contribution to Final Fantasy X's story. I don't need to know about them in order to make sense of Tidu's journey. When Waka receives the World Champion there is exposition about how it's an artifact passed down from a high summoner. Cool. Reveals nothing about Waka's characterization and expands no development. That's information for people who love huge story-worlds but it's not actively handled through a character's perspective. Compared to past titles, Final Fantasy XV hardly has cutscenes. It requires a hands on approach due to its emphasis on immersion. Nobody is sitting around a round table explaining the Astrals like how everyone from Flash takes five minutes to elaborate the science. When we walk into the Citadel Noctis will note that there is a conspicuous empty space in the picture and that Ardyn should be depicted there. Based on us putting Noctis into the situation through gameplay, we can infer somewhere along the line, the royal family erased Ardyn from history after Ardyn states "Ardyn Lucis Caelum is my proper name". We receive the historical record from him and then physical evidence from a worldbuilding device. I think the issue here is the continuation of playing more. What sounds like compelling gameplay set pieces occur off-screen. The Imperial Army launching an all-out attack on Tenebrae. Why? Because Luna is dead, but we don't get to play it and unlike Final Fantasy X or Final Fantasy XIII gameplay takes a bigger role here. When you say sidequest for lore you really mean you want to pracpiate in those moments rather than be told. This is why the DLC exist. For some of those moments we might play in them from an entirely different point of view. Noctis is not the main character anymore. Tabata created new chapters. Let's see if they hold up.

Final Fantasy XV asks for player interactivity. A large portion of the story is manged by it. It's not as coherently used through the entire game.

 

[Jubileus]

1: I think the criticism is irrelevant because Tabaata planned CHARACTER based expansion packs long before Final Fantasy XV's release.

2: A lot of people are bringing up the word LORE, generalizing it as a synonym for backstory, world building, and story. Worldbuilding is the revelation a story-world shown either indirectly or directly through story itself. A story as I know it is simply: a character chases after an aspiration, only to realize the pursuit creates a complication. The complication is solved by the third act. During any time spent on solving the complication, he or she changes. The pursuit itself does not have to be the root of conflict but often is. Story contains emotionalism, dialogue, action, conflict and other compoments that storytellers present each one in a manner for us to go on a journey with. Story is alive. We only encounter what the storyteller wants us to and what's encountered should not serve worldbuilding. Story is not worldbulding's slave. Those characters should not drop previous characterization just to spew out richer details about everything and anything inside the story-world (case point: almost the entireity of The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel II and the later half of Tales of Xillia II's main mission). When they become encyclopedias it's hard to care for them. This is why worldbuilding deals with the specifies of food, clothing, transportation, magical systems, weapons, and even what type of dragons everyone rides. The information about them is information, nothing more. How they are used by the story driving components is what matters most. Worldbuilding alone gives us a static and ego-driven story, ego driven because the storyteller wants to show how big their imagination is. Yes for some stories the world itself is a character. You may need a 400 page bible summarizing that world because it's way too much information to be coherently used in a story format (both Marvel and DC comics). They might also not be relevant to how we experience the story's components in a personal, inanimate way. You may have heard this before: only use details the audience needs to know to understand the story. Many RPGs throw out information after information though it doesn't contribute to the dramatic value uncovered in story. It's trivia. On the other hand, there are RPGs where worldbuilding hardly explains why events are happening now. Why is hell breaking loose now, as opposed to twenty years ago? Clarity my friend. When the story moves in ways purely arbitrary then the worldbuilding must be reworked. Theme reacting to worldbuilding is good. Character using a worldbuilding device is good. However, there should be a logical connection between the two. There is an insane superpowered, magical technology. Why does one society go Hilter because of it? In Warframe Grakata is the Grineers preferred weapon, but there's no explanation as to why Grineers prefer the weapon. The Infested are discovered through a quest, but there is no explanation as to why they exist. There is the Corpus Faction, but no explanation as to what they do and who founded it. Missing details makes for a confusing story-world. That would be a good time to drop action and dialogue characterized entertainingly for description and exposition.

Now let me get to lore. Over the course of a story, several facts accumulate by the people inhabiting said story-world. It's the recorded knowledge of their culture. For RPGs we receive that stuff from variations of codexs.

Backstory is story prior to the current story. It doesn't have to be full blown shown.

3: The point here is to bring all four together for consistency. Can we believe the story-world? Can we believe what the characters desire and the conflict against them?

4: Final Fantasy XV has a guidebook that contains lore not put into the game's script. That's basically a bible. We uncover lore in small bits that are only pertinent to the core happenings that surround the story. And the story is about Nocti's adventure towards ending an apocalypse. Final Fantasy X has tons of details about Spira, for example. But Auron finding Lord Mi'ihen's statue means nothing for his character since it has no story. He no reaction towards it. Finding Celestial Weapons are irrevealnt to the characters who they end up with. The extra Aeons and Temples have zero contribution to Final Fantasy X's story. I don't need to know about them in order to make sense of Tidu's journey. When Waka receives the World Champion there is exposition about how it's an artifact passed down from a high summoner. Cool. Reveals nothing about Waka's characterization and expands no development. That's information for people who love huge story-worlds but it's not actively handled through a character's perspective. Compared to past titles, Final Fantasy XV hardly has cutscenes. It requires a hands on approach due to its emphasis on immersion. Nobody is sitting around a round table explaining the Astrals like how everyone from Flash takes five minutes to elaborate the science. When we walk into the Citadel Noctis will note that there is a conspicuous empty space in the picture and that Ardyn should be depicted there. Based on us putting Noctis into the situation through gameplay, we can infer somewhere along the line, the royal family erased Ardyn from history after Ardyn states "Ardyn Lucis Caelum is my proper name". We receive the historical record from him and then physical evidence from a worldbuilding device. I think the issue here is the continuation of playing more. What sounds like compelling gameplay set pieces occur off-screen. The Imperial Army launching an all-out attack on Tenebrae. Why? Because Luna is dead, but we don't get to play it and unlike Final Fantasy X or Final Fantasy XIII gameplay takes a bigger role here. When you say sidequest for lore you really mean you want to pracpiate in those moments rather than be told. This is why the DLC exist. For some of those moments we might play in them from an entirely different point of view. Noctis is not the main character anymore. Tabata created new chapters. Let's see if they hold up.

I wasn't hating on the game or anything. Just thought I'd clarify that first.

Game is great and I've enjoyed the hell out of it and will continue to do so for a very long time, don't get me wrong, but it does have a presentation problem.

It's very shallow in story and world building. Yes there is DLC for that but as a stand alone game, it could've delivered a more deep experience.

For example in FF7, we learned about all the characters pasts and whatnot in very short episodes. This one lacked that completely.

Dyne, Marlene's father and a side character, got more characterisation than most in FFXV. He had a very short episode in FF7 but it was enough to make me empathise with why he turned out he way the did.

In comparison I've heard that Ignis is not a native to Insomnia yet we learn nothing about him, and he's part of the main cast, not a side character like Dyne.

I fully understand that time restraints had a big role in FFXV's development. With that said I'm not ruling out the possibility that within this year, the story for this game will have a massive overhaul and turn out to be absolutely fantastic.

I'm rooting for this game to kick ass just to be clear.

 

[All Hail King Bimpy]

In comparison I've heard that Ignis is not a native to Insomnia yet we learn nothing about him, and he's part of the main cast, not a side character like Dyne.

Knowing where Ignis comes from is irreverent to his story, especially because it has no impact on the view point protagonist's story. A birth place can easily be placed in one sentence during exposition. That location alone wouldn't build a connection between him and you. It's just again information. On the other hand, you can build a connection through his behavior (by nature, people have problems and by the default nature of Final Fantasy XV Noctis is the one we experience the most demonstrating various issues, traumas, and sundry emotional baggage he need to lay down. Ingis exhibits behavior to confide in, loving Noctis like a mother would for her child. He uses an assertive behavioral technique, weaknesses and strengths, letting Noctis know it's okay to not get everything you want and it is okay to get much of what you want, and express truths to everyone in a way that neither shrinks him from what he wants to communicate nor assume they are the only valid truths), personality (he is the brain to Gladiolus' Brawn, always using shrewd logic and comically serious humor), want (live up to the rare classical education he was fated to have for Nocti's benefit and keep on cooking, which is also a hobby), and need (fulfill the basic need for a sense of safety. If the party isn't safe, then they can forget everything they are trying to do. This is evident through gameplay: almost any time Noctis takes a hit or is overwhelmed by the enemy, Ignis will rush over to guard him. If your HP is low, he'll also cure you as long as he's nearby. When down on health, he will state it's time to replenish your supply of curatives. When stuck on strategy, he will tell the party where to strike and where to regroup. Outside of combat, he is the most likest to give great concern towards everyone's mental and physical well being like a mother).

Behavior, personality, want, and need > backstory information. Backstory is useful if it supplements the current story being told. And almost every time it's manged briefly through something not entirely dramatic unless it holds greater weight on the current story.

----------------------------------------------------

Dyne, Marlene's father and a side character, got more characterisation than most in FFXV.

There's hardly any characterization in this dialogue, the only method where characterization can flare through for this game. I would argue this is an example of how to not write dialogue. Very static. Lot's of direct questions and answers plus stilted words and phrasing. Dyne is no more than the sum of his storytelling purpose and that purpose obviously has nothing to do with characterizing his own self in a meaningful way. He is all plot. The dialogue in that video is better than the entirety of Ignis's existence? He only exist to support Nocti's journey and person-hood. But at least it's presented with heart, thanks largely to immersion. Unlike PS1, PS4 games can bring players closer to the avatars on screen.

You are trying hard to discredit the observable details each party member distinguishes through gameplay. I am not over hyping them either. I give credit where credit is due. For Final Fantasy XV, the party is flesh and blood. The thing it succeed at was making Nocti's relationship with his friends genuine. They were generally human. Sure Tabata or Nomura or whoever said Ignis isn't from Lucis based on his accent, but such interview statements have nothing to do with the final product. Regis has an accent. Characters from Kingsglaive have accents. I won't accept anyone saying the cast are cardboard anymore just because you can't find out where they were born or what their family is like. I had enough.




.

 

[Jubileus]

In comparison I've heard that Ignis is not a native to Insomnia yet we learn nothing about him, and he's part of the main cast, not a side character like Dyne.

Knowing where Ignis comes from is irreverent to his story, especially because it has no impact on the view point protagonist's story. A birth place can easily be placed in one sentence during exposition. That location alone wouldn't build a connection between him and you. It's just again information. On the other hand, you can build a connection through his behavior (by nature, people have problems and by the default nature of Final Fantasy XV Noctis is the one we experience the most demonstrating various issues, traumas, and sundry emotional baggage he need to lay down. Ingis exhibits behavior to confide in, loving Noctis like a mother would for her child. He uses an assertive behavioral technique, weaknesses and strengths, letting Noctis know it's okay to not get everything you want and it is okay to get much of what you want, and express truths to everyone in a way that neither shrinks him from what he wants to communicate nor assume they are the only valid truths), personality (he is the brain to Gladiolus' Brawn, always using shrewd logic and comically serious humor), want (live up to the rare classical education he was fated to have for Nocti's benefit and keep on cooking, which is also a hobby), and need (fulfill the basic need for a sense of safety. If the party isn't safe, then they can forget everything they are trying to do. This is evident through gameplay: almost any time Noctis takes a hit or is overwhelmed by the enemy, Ignis will rush over to guard him. If your HP is low, he'll also cure you as long as he's nearby. When down on health, he will state it's time to replenish your supply of curatives. When stuck on strategy, he will tell the party where to strike and where to regroup. Outside of combat, he is the most likest to give great concern towards everyone's mental and physical well being like a mother).

Behavior, personality, want, and need > backstory information. Backstory is useful if it supplements the current story being told. And almost every time it's manged briefly through something not entirely dramatic unless it holds greater weight on the current story.

----------------------------------------------------

There's hardly any characterization in this dialogue, the only method where characterization can flare through for this game. I would argue this is an example of how to not write dialogue. Very static. Lot's of direct questions and answers plus stilted words and phrasing. Dyne is no more than the sum of his storytelling purpose and that purpose obviously has nothing to do with characterizing his own self in a meaningful way. He is all plot. The dialogue in that video is better than the entirety of Ignis's existence? He only exist to support Nocti's journey and person-hood. But at least it's presented with heart, thanks largely to immersion. Unlike PS1, PS4 games can bring players closer to the avatars on screen.

You are trying hard to discredit the observable details each party member distinguishes through gameplay. I am not over hyping them either. I give credit where credit is due. For Final Fantasy XV, the party is flesh and blood. The thing it succeed at was making Nocti's relationship with his friends genuine. They were generally human. Sure Tabata or Nomura or whoever said Ignis isn't from Lucis based on his accent, but such interview statements have nothing to do with the final product. Regis has an accent. Characters from Kingsglaive have accents. I won't accept anyone saying the cast are cardboard anymore just because you can't find out where they were born or what their family is like. I had enough.




.

Ok firstly you need to calm down. Like seriously. If you've been around here long enough you'll know that this cast is my favourite in the FF series and I am not bashing them or anything. Chill.

Not sure why you're so argumentative and have "had enough". This ain't a fight dude and I'm not going the extreme route of bashing or anything like that.

All I'm saying is there needs to be more scenes showing more to the world and other characters other than what's shown from Noctis's point or view.

The game we got now is from Noctis's point of view and it makes for a very shallow experience.

His relationship with Luna and his Father isn't even explored that much, and these figures are central to Noctis' story.

Even the most hardcore fans can see and admit to that.

I love this game and it's been awhile since I've enjoyed a game as much as this one, but I will point out flaws if the need arises.

If you've been fighting with other haters about this game on other websites, dont bring that here and take it out on me. I'm not hating or anything remotely like that. Direct your anger at the right people please.

And this "argument" isn't even on topic for this thread so let's not derail it.