I was just telling a friend the other day that I'm thankful this game even exists at all, let alone all of the extra content we got for it over the span of two years. I'll always wish that we got some of the elements that only exist in Versus trailers but what XV ended up evolving into even by the time of its day one release is really special to me now.
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Wan Hazmer just did an interview with Gameinformer and talked about some Versus stuff and his time at SE working on it and XV. He mentioned again how he joined SE in 2010 and he was assigned to Versus when he joined, and that the party room area in Insomnia that the airship crashed into was what he was working on at the time, he said his first meeting about that party scene scene was just a bunch of sound effects and they made it after.
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Straight up if other artists existed for this game I'd love to do the entire story as it was meant to be told. I could do it but it'd be another ten year project.
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People hate Nomura OR Tabata for just ignorant reasons according to FFXV/Versus XIII Lead Game Designer Wan Hazmer he said Nomura would work fast there would be a level design problem that took the team weeks of work Nomura would fix it in 5 minutes so Nomura clearly doesn't have a developmental slow down issue, and he even says what we have all been saying. In essence FFXV was a product of terrible management, a terrible engine, a crap top of WTFs that went on at the company, alongside many developmental challenges.
When it comes to XV's story for both Nomura and Tabata it was a victim of not having enough time to tell it's ideas because management and development wouldn't let it.
A Game's story is heavily influenced by the time it takes to develop the ideas from the paper into the game world itself along with the budget of doing so. This likely is what caused Nomura's story to change every 3 months because when you are making a trilogy story you have to a good story out the gate the changes were likely him and Nojima trying to achieve this with the severely limited time that they had. The same thing can be said about Tabata as well not enough time with the added challenge of making 3 games fit into one narrative while at the same time making an engine and the game having to come out in 2016.
For me I don't think I've ever made this clear I never really hated Final Fantasy XV In fact there are some stuff I genuinely really love about the game and that is what makes it frustrating. There are somethings about the game I think could make it a masterpiece in my book such as the characters that originate from Versus XIII and the designs. The world design, animation, character chemistry between the bros, graphics, and the music all of that is stuff I really love about FFXV.
However for me with each great thing about XV they have a incredibly bad thing that just overshadows the good that could have come. That's what infuriating about it with each good thing for me is matched with something that I find either hilariously bad or just mediocre sullying the greatness that could have been.
That's kinda why I hope for a Versus XV to give me what I find genuinely great about FFXV and hopefully at least lessen the things I find just bad about it giving a more consistent product not one that just makes me furious about the wasted potential of it all.
When it comes to XV's story for both Nomura and Tabata it was a victim of not having enough time to tell it's ideas because management and development wouldn't let it.
A Game's story is heavily influenced by the time it takes to develop the ideas from the paper into the game world itself along with the budget of doing so. This likely is what caused Nomura's story to change every 3 months because when you are making a trilogy story you have to a good story out the gate the changes were likely him and Nojima trying to achieve this with the severely limited time that they had. The same thing can be said about Tabata as well not enough time with the added challenge of making 3 games fit into one narrative while at the same time making an engine and the game having to come out in 2016.
For me I don't think I've ever made this clear I never really hated Final Fantasy XV In fact there are some stuff I genuinely really love about the game and that is what makes it frustrating. There are somethings about the game I think could make it a masterpiece in my book such as the characters that originate from Versus XIII and the designs. The world design, animation, character chemistry between the bros, graphics, and the music all of that is stuff I really love about FFXV.
However for me with each great thing about XV they have a incredibly bad thing that just overshadows the good that could have come. That's what infuriating about it with each good thing for me is matched with something that I find either hilariously bad or just mediocre sullying the greatness that could have been.
That's kinda why I hope for a Versus XV to give me what I find genuinely great about FFXV and hopefully at least lessen the things I find just bad about it giving a more consistent product not one that just makes me furious about the wasted potential of it all.
I think that you've based your understanding of what happened on a faulty assumption about the relationship between Day One FFXV (henceforth DO!XV) and Versus XIII/Nomura XV (henceforth VXIII/N!XV).
See, I don't think that DO!FFXV was an attempt to create as much of VXIII/N!XV as possible. Rather, I think that VXIII/N!XV is essentially like an unfinished aircraft carrier whose parts were scavenged for use in a number of other projects after its abandonment.
See, I don't think that DO!FFXV was an attempt to create as much of VXIII/N!XV as possible. Rather, I think that VXIII/N!XV is essentially like an unfinished aircraft carrier whose parts were scavenged for use in a number of other projects after its abandonment.
The Immortal Man cursed to bear Chaos: In XIII-2, this is Caius; in XV, it's Ardyn. DO!XV made the necessary modifications to accommodate the Starscourge (a magical zombie-like plague) in place of Chaos (an unfortunate metaphysical fact of the universe), which resulted in a much more appealing character in the context of the game proper (Ardyn is generally considered a top-three FF villain alongside Kefka and Sephiroth) and a ton of problems for DotF's attempt to restore its FNC-based concepts.
The line of holy women connected to the gods: In XIII-2, this is Yeul; in DO!XV, it's Luna and the Oracles. Given the clear connection between Luna and Etro in DotF, it's likely that Stella was directly connected to Etro like Yeul was rather than filling a roughly equivalent role as mediator between humanity and the Astrals.
The Goddess who sunk into Chaos: In FNC lore, Muin sinks into the Chaos and chooses Etro as her successor. In XIII-2, Etro follows in Muin's footsteps and sinks into the Chaos, choosing Lightning as her successor. DO!XV portrays Luna's death as her sinking into a swirling pool of darkness, much like the way Chaos was portrayed in the XIII trilogy, and DotF's Episode Luna begins with that same imagery. It seems very likely that Stella was intended to fulfill this role in VXIII/N!XV.
The line of holy women connected to the gods: In XIII-2, this is Yeul; in DO!XV, it's Luna and the Oracles. Given the clear connection between Luna and Etro in DotF, it's likely that Stella was directly connected to Etro like Yeul was rather than filling a roughly equivalent role as mediator between humanity and the Astrals.
The Goddess who sunk into Chaos: In FNC lore, Muin sinks into the Chaos and chooses Etro as her successor. In XIII-2, Etro follows in Muin's footsteps and sinks into the Chaos, choosing Lightning as her successor. DO!XV portrays Luna's death as her sinking into a swirling pool of darkness, much like the way Chaos was portrayed in the XIII trilogy, and DotF's Episode Luna begins with that same imagery. It seems very likely that Stella was intended to fulfill this role in VXIII/N!XV.
World of Ruin: LR takes place in a world corrupted by Chaos and doomed to perish; XV's final arc takes place in a world corrupted by the Starscourge.
The resurrected avatar of the Goddess of Death: LR begins with Bhunivelze resurrecting Lightning to act as the new Goddess of Death; DotF Episode Luna begins with Bahamut resurrecting Luna to act as the avatar of darkness to bring about the destruction of the world. The concept art of Luna as the avatar of darkness looks exactly like Etro, FNC's Goddess of Death, which suggests that this may have been the role Stella was intended to play in VXIII/N!XV.
Bhunivelze plots to remake humanity: In LR, Bhunivelze believes that humans' memory of loss corrupts them and intends to perfect humanity by destroying the souls of the dread and thus purging their memory from the living. DotF Bahamut's plan is less metaphysical and more "destroy them all" (likely due to the shift away from FNC), but his plan is still motivated by a belief that humanity is a source of corruption in the world that needs to be dealt with by force.
Dawn of a new world free of divinity: LR ends with the Eidolons and Mog fading into light and the Crystal shattering as humanity's connection to everything magical and/or divine is severed by Bhunivelze's defeat. Likewise, DotF ends with the Astrals fading away and the Crystal shattering as Bahamut's defeat severs humanity's connection to magic/divinity.
Redemption of the Immortal Man: In LR, Caius must stay in the Unseen Realm with Yeul to manage the Chaos in the new world. In DotF, Ardyn must sacrifice himself to defeat Bahamut in the Beyond.
The resurrected avatar of the Goddess of Death: LR begins with Bhunivelze resurrecting Lightning to act as the new Goddess of Death; DotF Episode Luna begins with Bahamut resurrecting Luna to act as the avatar of darkness to bring about the destruction of the world. The concept art of Luna as the avatar of darkness looks exactly like Etro, FNC's Goddess of Death, which suggests that this may have been the role Stella was intended to play in VXIII/N!XV.
Bhunivelze plots to remake humanity: In LR, Bhunivelze believes that humans' memory of loss corrupts them and intends to perfect humanity by destroying the souls of the dread and thus purging their memory from the living. DotF Bahamut's plan is less metaphysical and more "destroy them all" (likely due to the shift away from FNC), but his plan is still motivated by a belief that humanity is a source of corruption in the world that needs to be dealt with by force.
Dawn of a new world free of divinity: LR ends with the Eidolons and Mog fading into light and the Crystal shattering as humanity's connection to everything magical and/or divine is severed by Bhunivelze's defeat. Likewise, DotF ends with the Astrals fading away and the Crystal shattering as Bahamut's defeat severs humanity's connection to magic/divinity.
Redemption of the Immortal Man: In LR, Caius must stay in the Unseen Realm with Yeul to manage the Chaos in the new world. In DotF, Ardyn must sacrifice himself to defeat Bahamut in the Beyond.
A world-ending power sparked by a clash between light and darkness: In BbS, Xehanort seeks to open Kingdom Hearts and recreate the world by using the clash between a heart of pure light and a heart of pure darkness to create the X-blade. In DotF, Bahamut seeks to summon Teraflare and end the world using the clash between the King of Light and a Goddess of Darkness.
Simultaneous internal and external efforts necessary to destroy the world-ending power: BbS' X-blade requires the combined efforts of Aqua's external fight with Ventus-Vanitas and Ven's internal fight with Vanitas to be destroyed, and it costs Ven his heart. DotF's Bahamut must be defeated externally by Noctis and internally by Ardyn at the cost of Ardyn's life.
Simultaneous internal and external efforts necessary to destroy the world-ending power: BbS' X-blade requires the combined efforts of Aqua's external fight with Ventus-Vanitas and Ven's internal fight with Vanitas to be destroyed, and it costs Ven his heart. DotF's Bahamut must be defeated externally by Noctis and internally by Ardyn at the cost of Ardyn's life.
A mysterious individual with the ability to see the future and the desire to control it: Ux introduces the Foretellers and their leader, the Master of Masters, who can see the future and uses the Foretellers to ensure that it goes as he intends. DotF positions Bahamut on a higher level than the other Astrals and suggests that he's the one creating destinies for humans.
A villain who wants to annihilate humanity and reboot the world using a clash between light and darkness: KHIII reveals that Xehanort's true motivation is to use Kingdom Hearts to reset the world to zero in order to deal with the corruption caused by humanity. This is very much like Bahamut's plan in DotF... and it shares the additional similarity of both plans getting as far as Kingdom Hearts/Teraflare launching an opening salvo at humanity before being stopped.
Overall, then, DO!XV certainly has some connections to the FNC mythos upon which VXIII/N!XV was likely based, but these are general enough that they don't really affect the game's emotional core of acceptance and maturity.
DotF, in contrast, is connected to other FNC-influenced games in so many ways that it seems like it could be a Rosetta Stone for VXIII/N!XV lore. Nonetheless, the limits imposed by DO!XV probably make its implementation of these elements more awkward than they would have been in their original context. And, given the degree to which almost every major element in DotF has already been drawn upon elsewhere... I'm not sure how much sense it would make to focus on it too heavily in the future.
DotF, in contrast, is connected to other FNC-influenced games in so many ways that it seems like it could be a Rosetta Stone for VXIII/N!XV lore. Nonetheless, the limits imposed by DO!XV probably make its implementation of these elements more awkward than they would have been in their original context. And, given the degree to which almost every major element in DotF has already been drawn upon elsewhere... I'm not sure how much sense it would make to focus on it too heavily in the future.
Another possible connection that's been noticed is that the Master of Masters may have fallen into some kind of endless sleep/death like Bhunivelze or Bahamut after using the power of waking, and how he's trapped in some other realm. His apprentices believe he will return, you could liken this to the Fal'cie wanting to find their maker, and how Bhunivelze gives Pulse and Lindzei different tasks. So if you think if the Master as Bhunivelze/Bahamut and his apprentices/foretellers as his Fal'cie/Astrals, you could theorise that if Luxu/Xigbar was an apprentice of the Master, was Ardyn originally going to be a Fal'cie similar to Arecia in Type-0, but he went rogue and wanted to defy the gods/crystals instead of serving them? It gets you thinking, but obviously I prefer him as a more human character, as opposed to some higher being
We also have the secret centuries-old troll who pretends to be the lackey when he's the true mastermind.
Funny parallels but you get the picture. This scene in KH3 in particular reminded me of XV's early game trolling that Ardyn did.
Could be nothing but still, as a fan of both I can't help but notice things sometimes.
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Also recently noticed how Xehanort has the same little sneer/smirk expression Xehanort makes, he did this in one of the old Versus trailers too. But that's all I have for the KH connections, I'm sure you could make plenty given that Nomura likes to recycle certain ideas and designs a lot if he likes them, even the smallest details.
Well, I would argue that the upshot of my post is that DO!XV actually drew significantly less from FNC than the other five projects that drew from that same well... mostly because of the critical lore change from Chaos as an inevitable metaphysical fact of the world to the Starscourge as a mysterious zombie-esque plague in need of a final resolution. DO!XV kept a few character types, with heavy modifications, but the outcome of the conflict couldn't reasonably look anything like what it did in VXIII/N!XV.
That, I think, is why DotF had to go so heavy on the retcons and still didn't make a lot of sense in places -- the concepts it's trying to restore don't really fit right in the context of the world that was built in DO!XV. Nomura was actually able to fit VXIII/N!XV concepts more naturally into a completely different franchise than DotF was able to fit them into DO!XV.
Right! I knew I forgot something important about the Master of Masters/Fal'Cie connection. XD; I agree with you completely.
Regarding Ardyn, I think he was far more likely to have filled Caius' role than to have been a Fal'Cie.
This seems more circumstantial than the other things we've mentioned, but it still is a connection...
That, I think, is why DotF had to go so heavy on the retcons and still didn't make a lot of sense in places -- the concepts it's trying to restore don't really fit right in the context of the world that was built in DO!XV. Nomura was actually able to fit VXIII/N!XV concepts more naturally into a completely different franchise than DotF was able to fit them into DO!XV.
Right! I knew I forgot something important about the Master of Masters/Fal'Cie connection. XD; I agree with you completely.
Regarding Ardyn, I think he was far more likely to have filled Caius' role than to have been a Fal'Cie.
It's worth noting that Luxu himself is rather different from the other Foretellers, insofar as he a) doesn't have a copy of the Book of Prophecies and b) is alive the entire time rather than sleeping and being summoned back. He also has the eye of the Master of Masters, too, which is a very FNC concept (see XIII-2's Eyes of Etro).
This seems more circumstantial than the other things we've mentioned, but it still is a connection...
...especially since millennia-old trolls had not been a thing in KH up to this point.
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There was one other connection that I noticed. The last world in KH3, Scala Ad Caelum, is the supposed nexus of all worlds and a seat of power for all keyblade wielders. The mobile game KHUX seems to be alluding to Scala Ad Caelum being founded by someone shady who wasn't originally planned to become leader, like Somnus. They're given an ancient Keyblade to pass down generation to generation. This all sounds vaguely similar to Lucis, who were given the ring to protect the crystal by the gods. It seems that they were given the No-Name Keyblade to protect Scala and Kingdom Hearts, which is like the crystal in certain ways.
And in this situation, Xehanort fulfils a similar role to Noctis, he is the latest in a long line to inherit the ancient keyblade and is a dark chosen one, that the antagonist Luxu (very similarly to Ardyn) had been waiting in the shadows hundreds of years for, as he plays a role in summoning Kingdom Hearts which will lead to the return of his Master. So in many ways Xehanort was a pawn for the "gods" like Noctis was in the original game.
None of these are direct allegories but you see little fragments of ideas and concepts there in the lore, and I believe most of this stuff was probably written after Nomura left XV/Versus XIII. Anyway I won't overdo it, but I hope this was a little insightful.
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It is true that the project had management problems but, how far can you push management as the answer to end all questions about the problems with the project before making it a cop out to not make anyone responsible? Because this thing was made by people, under management restrictions, but by people nonetheless.
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Here are some DOTF translations thanks to higharollakockamamie.tumblr.com
Ardyn and Bahamut (from page 384-386)
Dawn of the Future, page 5-6
Dawn of the Future, page 7
Dawn of the Future, page 8
Dawn of the Future, page 12-14
Dawn of the Future, page 17-18
Dawn of the Future, page 19
Dawn of the Future, page 20-21: Somnus and Aera
Dawn of the Future Throne Room Scene
Ardyn and Bahamut (from page 384-386)
Dawn of the Future, page 5-6
Dawn of the Future, page 7
Dawn of the Future, page 8
Dawn of the Future, page 12-14
Dawn of the Future, page 17-18
Dawn of the Future, page 19
Dawn of the Future, page 20-21: Somnus and Aera
Dawn of the Future Throne Room Scene
As an artist, stick to your guns. All those fan demands prioritized shit like the flying car or moogles when they could have been building us a train from Altissia to Cartanica, or including Ardyn's story in game as was the original plan (or for that matter, given Big Bang itself is clearly the original ending they had in mind, all of the DotF stuff).
To make a modern FF game requires something like Breath of the Wild; six years. Literally three more years of development and all the DLC as well as animated stuff theoretically could have made it into the base game from scratch and with it, perhaps a nicer UI. The EP Duscae one was really nice and even the ones months before release were pretty nice, but the actual launch one feels kinda bland.
Literally if they just had time to incorporate the DLC, it would have sold even if they had to beg and beg and beg investors to have patience; FFXV broke even day 1 and was liked if not a little sparse to people; with all this extra content actually being integrated into the story normally, having DotF be the actual conclusion instead of relegated to "DLC 'alternate' grand finale" would have definitely made it feel more fantastical, plus Luna would have had her time in the party and we'd get the "most important goddess in the game", all stuff they said was in mid-2015. It was 2015's later half that they made all the cuts to the story to trim it down to the Ardyn fight instead of letting it extend into the FNC-like dream stuff. The base game had scripts hidden in its datamine referring to events in EP Ardyn before the day 1 edition of the script was integrated.
To make a modern FF game requires something like Breath of the Wild; six years. Literally three more years of development and all the DLC as well as animated stuff theoretically could have made it into the base game from scratch and with it, perhaps a nicer UI. The EP Duscae one was really nice and even the ones months before release were pretty nice, but the actual launch one feels kinda bland.
Literally if they just had time to incorporate the DLC, it would have sold even if they had to beg and beg and beg investors to have patience; FFXV broke even day 1 and was liked if not a little sparse to people; with all this extra content actually being integrated into the story normally, having DotF be the actual conclusion instead of relegated to "DLC 'alternate' grand finale" would have definitely made it feel more fantastical, plus Luna would have had her time in the party and we'd get the "most important goddess in the game", all stuff they said was in mid-2015. It was 2015's later half that they made all the cuts to the story to trim it down to the Ardyn fight instead of letting it extend into the FNC-like dream stuff. The base game had scripts hidden in its datamine referring to events in EP Ardyn before the day 1 edition of the script was integrated.
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final fantasy xv complete edition available now
steam
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/10539/FINAL_FANTASY_XV_EPISODE_ARDYN_COMPLETE_EDITION/
steam
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/10539/FINAL_FANTASY_XV_EPISODE_ARDYN_COMPLETE_EDITION/
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