Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

[Dorothy95]

Hot take: Ravus deserved his own DLC story more than Aranea and he was more important a character to the story overall being Luna's brother and Noctis' foil/rival. Aranea could've teamed up with Ravus for the DLC but I find it weird the novel, especially Aranea's chapter, doesn't mention him at all. You'd think the two would've crossed paths. Ravus' part in Ep Ignis just made me wish he was in the game more.

yeah i would rather have ravus dlc instead of aranea's (i'm not super into pushing even more new characters into the dlcs and suddenly aranea is a mom and stuff like that). i would love to see his way from the boy in kingsglaive to commander in game. He could pair with Aranea tho, she is a fun character after all, and she worked with him for niflheim so it wouldn't be uncommon to have her in his dlc. ehh ff xv deserved to be trilogy

 

[Loganight]

As far as what we know from Episode Noctis so far:

Spoiler

1. Wonder if the figures in golden armor would have been similar to Odin that we see in the Bahamut concept art? Since he's made of golden armor there.
2. Cool that it seems like we may have seen the Dawn scene in its entirety, though it could also have just been a flash like in Episode Ardyn.
3. Really like how Noctis comes to the realization of how everything in his life leads back to Ardyn setting things in motion after being released. It's a powerful realization that I've come to in my own life that without the good AND the bad I would not be where I am today. I really like that.
4. Noctis understanding Ravus's side of things is so good!! It really brings things full circle from the scene of Ravus coming to terms with Noctis as the True King from the chapter 13 update.
5. Sol replacing my boy Talcot to fill Noctis in and bring him back is kinda feelsbadman, kinda feelsgoodman. I'm torn.
6. A little disappointed to hear that the only Lucii we fight is Somnus again, though out of the three his fights have been some of the best in the game. Seems like rather than focusing on Noctis's journey back through Insomnia (thus giving him more opportunities to face the rest of the Lucii, or messengers, or daemons, or anything else really) they really just have one fight before he gets to Ardyn and in the meantime take the opportunity to focus on the other members of the cast. A bit weird of a choice for Noctis's DLC but I guess it really just ties things up more than focusing on Noctis beyond his time in the crystal. I would have preferred forcing him to fight alone and focusing on the journey through Insomnia for the bulk of the DLC. Something akin to him fighting solo across the city in Versus trailers.
7. I hope that they gave Noctis a different fighting style for this DLC, it would have felt really stale and cheap to play his regular moveset from FFXV proper for a DLC. Especially with the decentralized focus on him after leaving the crystal. Even if they just gave him a permanent Armiger like in Versus it would be something.
8. Yup, this shit with Bahamut is garbage, not much more to say. Terra Flare is cool but beyond that not much redeeming here. Waiting to read the next part to see how cool the fight might have been. If they just recycled Comrades Bahamut ooooo boy

EDIT: Also I wish they would have just stuck to Ifrit causing the scourge by dropping the meteor on Titan during the Astral War which happened to be carrying it. The fact that it seems like this novel still doesn't answer the nature of the scourge, even in its own way, despite it clearly being an instrument of Bahamut's machinations is so unsatisfying and bizarre LOL

 

[motoleo]

This game should've been fun enough on its own without having to ask for this and that and this and that. And not getting it. Most games, you don't have to think "it should've had this I wish it had that" it's all included

 

[SonOfEtro]

Apologies in advance, but this is quite long and perhaps somewhat rambling.

Spoiler

I think people are missing what the Astrals are; a race unto themselves, individuals with strange motives. As to Bahamut, now I've read more of the summaries, it's plain to me that there's a black-and-white logic to Bahamut's vision. Let's look at each of the Astrals and the Crystal;

Titan; Generally friendly, defended Eos and humans in canon.
Ramuh; A somewhat neutral overseer, still defended Eos.
Leviathan; tempestuous, but ready to defend her realm if she came under threat, from either humans or Astrals.
Ifrit; Placed too much faith in humans and didn't take rejection well, basically wanted to wipe the slate clean and start again.
Shiva; An impassive figure until warmed by Ifrit's compassion, then had to fight him when he was pushed too far, and was won over to humanity's cause again by Lunafreya's compassion.
Bahamut; An impassive overseer and guide to all of Eos, both gods and humans.
The Crystal; a near-inanimate seed of power, possibly even the source of life on Eos, given that DotF's lore there is consistant with descriptions of the Crystal from the main game's lore.

For all there's a bit of rushing over details which hurts the overall narrative, DotF doesn't contradict the Astrals' attitudes outright, only takes it to a logical extreme based on the actions of humanity. From what I see, Bahamut wanted the world to be ideal, in his own way. But first humanity negatively influenced Ifrit so he took it personally when they turned against him and the others, then the war between Ifrit and humanity turned into a war between the gods. If you were the highest god and saw your fellows and creations in your image squabbling, you might unleash your fury. The other Astrals stop him, which gives Bahamut time to calm.

As to the Starscourge, I'm disappointed there's been nothing more concrete about its emergence, but that appears to be the general fault with the entire XV narrative, canon or otherwise. Anyway, Bahamut has a chance to cool down, and sees humans rebuilding after Solheim's fall. As the Scourge (which is portrayed as an outside or alien threat to Eos's ecosystem) threatens everything and everyone on Eos, Bahamut decides to put a plan into motion, using humans as his medium to purge Eos of its scourge. Concentrate the Scourge into an embodiment, then use another chosen person to gather enough magical energy that a single flash will annihilate the Scourge. Ardyn's being immortal doesn't seem to have been in the original plan, so Bahamut adjusted as everything else was fitting in nicely, and he found a means to manipulate Ardyn into following his revised plan. If they follow his plan, they've proven their worth and redeemed themselves in his eyes, and he's quite happy to let them rebuild.

Only then...Ardyn doesn't fulfil his role, and instead builds his power to the point where even the Ring replete with the light of Providence can't stop him or the Scourge. Humanity's going down the same path again; rejecting the gods again. The world tips that little bit beyond what Bahamut is willing to save. If you were a god who saw the world falling into ruin twice over because of the same problematic species, wouldn't you want to wipe the slate clean and start again? Biblical stories, the myths of Classical Europe and Asia, even the Americas all have that theme. When humans fall or insult their gods, they receive retribution. In Bahamut's case, that's a reboot. The book explicitly states that the Crystal gave life to Eos, and I think that's legit lore that applies to the greater canon. What's to stop Bahamut from using the Crystal again to rejuvenate the planet after his purge?

It's not that he always intended to level Eos, or that he changed his mind over nothing. He originally saw the world tipping towards ruin, and took a hasty action. Then he had time to reconsider when the other Astrals pushed against him, and when the Scourge appeared, he decided to give Eos another chance. But the path to salvation he'd set out was thrown back in his face. It was like Solheim all over again. Humans were made in the Astrals' image; that may also extend to their personalities, only with the Astrals it's on a far more grandiose scale. The other Astrals are bound by the absolute rule; defend Eos. Even Ifrit's won back to that when he realises just how far Bahamut's planning to go from Luna during the final chapter. He acts against Bahamut to save himself and Eos, not humanity. And since it's likely he was still killed by Bahamut during the Great War of Old, this would be sweet revenge for him. Ifrit's rather like the Ardyn of the Astrals; he's driven by selfish motives to do selfless acts.

Yes, DotF isn't perfect by a long chalk. There's gaps, there's rushed segments, and trying to tell this story in book form can come off as weird, and without the gameplay tells it's difficult to tell what's part of the larger canon and what's being brought up for this particular line of history. But they didn't create completely original characters for the novel alone, they were extrapolating on already-existing traits each Astral had. Basically....Bahamut's didn't fully understand the concept of the best laid plans going wrong, because there was no middle ground in his mind. It seems there are some aspects of the world even he doesn't understand. And that's a lot like the more Classical interpretation of deities, which I think is what XV was aiming for.

Edit: This is gonna be one of those topics, I think. I struggle to think what if any other game managed to generate this must debate over a few details.

 

[Loganight]

I think the biggest problem with FFXV as a whole is they didn't have enough time or resources to get everything they wanted into the base game, and then when they had a second chance with the DLC there were too many cooks in the kitchen and they failed to add most of the important missing lore. Rather they continued to add new things that further complicate the already questionable lore. This really comes to a head in DoTF.

 

[Ikkin]

Apologies in advance, but this is quite long and perhaps somewhat rambling.

Spoiler

I think people are missing what the Astrals are; a race unto themselves, individuals with strange motives. As to Bahamut, now I've read more of the summaries, it's plain to me that there's a black-and-white logic to Bahamut's vision. Let's look at each of the Astrals and the Crystal;

Titan; Generally friendly, defended Eos and humans in canon.
Ramuh; A somewhat neutral overseer, still defended Eos.
Leviathan; tempestuous, but ready to defend her realm if she came under threat, from either humans or Astrals.
Ifrit; Placed too much faith in humans and didn't take rejection well, basically wanted to wipe the slate clean and start again.
Shiva; An impassive figure until warmed by Ifrit's compassion, then had to fight him when he was pushed too far, and was won over to humanity's cause again by Lunafreya's compassion.
Bahamut; An impassive overseer and guide to all of Eos, both gods and humans.
The Crystal; a near-inanimate seed of power, possibly even the source of life on Eos, given that DotF's lore there is consistant with descriptions of the Crystal from the main game's lore.

For all there's a bit of rushing over details which hurts the overall narrative, DotF doesn't contradict the Astrals' attitudes outright, only takes it to a logical extreme based on the actions of humanity. From what I see, Bahamut wanted the world to be ideal, in his own way. But first humanity negatively influenced Ifrit so he took it personally when they turned against him and the others, then the war between Ifrit and humanity turned into a war between the gods. If you were the highest god and saw your fellows and creations in your image squabbling, you might unleash your fury. The other Astrals stop him, which gives Bahamut time to calm.

As to the Starscourge, I'm disappointed there's been nothing more concrete about its emergence, but that appears to be the general fault with the entire XV narrative, canon or otherwise. Anyway, Bahamut has a chance to cool down, and sees humans rebuilding after Solheim's fall. As the Scourge (which is portrayed as an outside or alien threat to Eos's ecosystem) threatens everything and everyone on Eos, Bahamut decides to put a plan into motion, using humans as his medium to purge Eos of its scourge. Concentrate the Scourge into an embodiment, then use another chosen person to gather enough magical energy that a single flash will annihilate the Scourge. Ardyn's being immortal doesn't seem to have been in the original plan, so Bahamut adjusted as everything else was fitting in nicely, and he found a means to manipulate Ardyn into following his revised plan. If they follow his plan, they've proven their worth and redeemed themselves in his eyes, and he's quite happy to let them rebuild.

Only then...Ardyn doesn't fulfil his role, and instead builds his power to the point where even the Ring replete with the light of Providence can't stop him or the Scourge. Humanity's going down the same path again; rejecting the gods again. The world tips that little bit beyond what Bahamut is willing to save. If you were a god who saw the world falling into ruin twice over because of the same problematic species, wouldn't you want to wipe the slate clean and start again? Biblical stories, the myths of Classical Europe and Asia, even the Americas all have that theme. When humans fall or insult their gods, they receive retribution. In Bahamut's case, that's a reboot. The book explicitly states that the Crystal gave life to Eos, and I think that's legit lore that applies to the greater canon. What's to stop Bahamut from using the Crystal again to rejuvenate the planet after his purge?

It's not that he always intended to level Eos, or that he changed his mind over nothing. He originally saw the world tipping towards ruin, and took a hasty action. Then he had time to reconsider when the other Astrals pushed against him, and when the Scourge appeared, he decided to give Eos another chance. But the path to salvation he'd set out was thrown back in his face. It was like Solheim all over again. Humans were made in the Astrals' image; that may also extend to their personalities, only with the Astrals it's on a far more grandiose scale. The other Astrals are bound by the absolute rule; defend Eos. Even Ifrit's won back to that when he realises just how far Bahamut's planning to go from Luna during the final chapter. He acts against Bahamut to save himself and Eos, not humanity. And since it's likely he was still killed by Bahamut during the Great War of Old, this would be sweet revenge for him. Ifrit's rather like the Ardyn of the Astrals; he's driven by selfish motives to do selfless acts.

Yes, DotF isn't perfect by a long chalk. There's gaps, there's rushed segments, and trying to tell this story in book form can come off as weird, and without the gameplay tells it's difficult to tell what's part of the larger canon and what's being brought up for this particular line of history. But they didn't create completely original characters for the novel alone, they were extrapolating on already-existing traits each Astral had. Basically....Bahamut's didn't fully understand the concept of the best laid plans going wrong, because there was no middle ground in his mind. It seems there are some aspects of the world even he doesn't understand. And that's a lot like the more Classical interpretation of deities, which I think is what XV was aiming for.

I still don't think Bahamut's characterization in DotF is consistent with canon.

Spoiler

For one thing, future sight is clearly a thing that exists in canon, so Bahamut shouldn't be caught off-guard. The painting of the prophecy included Ignis' blindness, which absolutely was not a necessary condition for the prophecy's fulfillment (...and which happens as a result of Ardyn defying the calling Bahamut gave him and deciding that he'd rather just eliminate Noct then and there).

For another, canon Bahamut always seemed cold and calculating, not tempestuous and impulsive. Getting angry enough to try to annihilate everything, then cooling down and deciding that's not a good idea clearly falls into the latter category rather than the former. And, sure, that fits with Classical mythology, but that just goes to show that FFXV's Astrals were going for something a little more nuanced than Classical mythology.

FFXV's Astrals are conscious embodiments of impersonal forces of nature rather than forces of nature misunderstood as inherently personal. That DotF implies otherwise is a problem with DotF, not an expansion of FFXV's characterization.

 

[SonOfEtro]

I seriously hope they ditch divinity being a key part of the story for the next FF.

 

[Ikkin]

I seriously hope they ditch divinity being a key part of the story for the next FF.

Same. I liked what FFXV proper did with it, but between FFX, FFXII, FFXIII and its sequels, and DotF... the "fighting gods" thing has really gotten old. =P

 

[SonOfEtro]

Same. I liked what FFXV proper did with it, but between FFX, FFXII, FFXIII and its sequels, and DotF... the "fighting gods" thing has really gotten old. =P

Let's not forget III, VI, XI, and XIV. It's sadly a bit of a trope, not just in FF but in popular Japanese fiction. It's rarer to find mainstream Japanese fantasy fiction that deviates from this than fiction that doesn't.

 

[Ikkin]

Let's not forget III, VI, XI, and XIV. It's sadly a bit of a trope, not just in FF but in popular Japanese fiction. It's rarer to find mainstream Japanese fantasy fiction that deviates from this than fiction that doesn't.

I wouldn't call Cloud of Darkness or Kefka gods, exactly; Cloud of Darkness is darkness anthropomorphized, but no one treats her as divine, and Kefka is a wannabe god rather than an actual divine entity. (FFVI's actual gods had been out of commission for a long time by the time the game took place, even if Kefka managed to make them fight for him in the endgame.) FF's current position on gods seems to have begun with FFVII (where, while Sephiroth is no more an actual god than Kefka, he's actually serious in his divine pretentions rather than making a mockery of the concept) and taken its current form with FFX.

As for the MMOs... I know very little about them. XD;

 

[Loganight]

I enjoy the dynamic of gods in XIV from what I've played so far. The "gods" are more like puppets than actual divinity if you mean the primals. They're just idols gorged on prayer and crystals, not the actual deities that their followers based them on.

 

[Somber]

I enjoy the dynamic of gods in XIV from what I've played so far. The "gods" are more like puppets than actual divinity if you mean the primals. They're just idols gorged on prayer and crystals, not the actual deities that their followers based them on.

Yeah the primals aren't gods. Then there are Hydalen and Zodiark whom we haven't learned of their full capabilities yet.

 

[Storm]

The Primals are like gods but essentialy they are aether given form by the beliefs of the different races in Eorzea, beliefs twisted with fanaticism that may or not be based on characters, creatures or events of great fame that actually existed/happened; any legend can be given form with enough faith and crystals.

There are exceptions though... but spoiling it would ruin a number of memorable scenes.

 

[358/2 Belts]

I seriously hope they ditch divinity being a key part of the story for the next FF.

I think main characters beings subtle pawns of the divine isn't necessarily as bad but I agree the "punch god in the face" philosophy has been overused in FF and JRPGs in general at this point. XV's canon ending is about sacrifice, Versus would've probably been about sacrifice if it was a tragedy, so XV was never really about fighting divinity until DotF became a thing and they pitted us against Bahamut and the Astrals.

It's weird because while FFXV is supposed to be more of a "fantasy based on reality" there's a lot more of an emphasis on Gods and magic compared with FFVII or VIII which both share more contemporary settings too. I'm pretty sure VIII's world didn't have any major deities running the show, and VII took a more sci-fi approach to things mostly. Going back to what those games did with their lore for XVI could change things up more.

 

[Lulcielid]

Re: Punching Gods/Divinity as Key Role

I dont think FFX falls in either trope, as its main Antagonist/Key Role Divities (Sin & Yu Yevon) are not a Divinity with the power and influence like the FNC Deities, they are just powerful and destructive forces, their Divinity status is just the in-universe cognictive perseption of the people of Spira.

The Occuria (FF12) also never striked me like the FNC Divinities in nature but my memory about them is a bit foggy so I will stop here.

 

[Loganight]

Honestly as far as canonicty goes for DoTF, at the end of the day if the devs say it is canon then it is in fact canon. If it's portrayed as AU but still canon within FFXV's collective universe then that is also the case. As much as I agree with Ikkin and others here that alot of the plot points in DoTF are counter-intuitive to FFXV's narrative I also have to acknowledge that that doesn't make it any less a part of the story. Like many people have chosen to do with Episode Ignis's alt ending (depsite also breaking supposed canon) and now DoTF I will simply choose to enjoy FFXV for what I personally enjoy about it and not worry about the problems brought up by its extended universe. We can all choose to do the same in any way we'd like. If you enjoy DoTF and the alt ending it proposes then I am so happy for you that we're able to experience this story despite the DLCs cancellation! Even if it's not something I'll concern myself with very much as far as my enjoyment of FFXV going forward.

 

[motoleo]

You know I was going to purchase the book but now that I basically know what happens you know what, I won't even buy it. Since we have to wait and everything. Don't even matter. Ha

 

[Lulcielid]

Thinking about it for sometime, in the end does the canocity of DOTF really matter?

1) It's an AU and not proper part of the story (unlike something like FFX-2.5)

2) Is not properly part of FFXV (the game) nor literally rewrites it (like the updated chapter 12 & 14) and thus it cant add or substract anything from XV.

There's nothing to get upset about DOTF because XV (the game) is still untouched by it.

 

[Loganight]

Thinking about it for sometime, in the end does the canocity of DOTF really matter?

1) It's an AU and not proper part of the story (unlike something like FFX-2.5)

2) Is not properly part of FFXV (the game) nor literally rewrites it (like the updated chapter 12 & 14) and thus it cant add or substract anything from XV.

There's nothing to get upset about DOTF because XV (the game) is still untouched by it.

Yeah exactly, and even some of the stuff that is within updates to the game itself you can just ignore if it lessens your experience. That's the point I was trying to make above. Enjoy the game and it's surrounding universe however you want to.

 

[Ikkin]

Thinking about it for sometime, in the end does the canocity of DOTF really matter?

1) It's an AU and not proper part of the story (unlike something like FFX-2.5)

2) Is not properly part of FFXV (the game) nor literally rewrites it (like the updated chapter 12 & 14) and thus it cant add or substract anything from XV.

There's nothing to get upset about DOTF because XV (the game) is still untouched by it.

As long as the lore is in no way binding on the original game and DotF isn't seen as necessary for the original game to be complete, using the word canon or not is a mere matter of terminology.