Lightning Returns *SPOILERS* thread

[Mark]

If you look to the image below, you'll see a planet identical to Earth above Yggdrasil.

> http://24.media.tumblr.com/721b3eec51c4dc2abe5b18f008970d29/tumblr_mwrreuIB2h1qi1foco1_1280.png

In norse mythology (and XIII games are influenced by norse mythology since the beginning), Yggdrasil is the sacred tree that connects the nine realms. Midgard is one of them, and its basically our Earth. In the end, it doesnt really matter which planet they ended up, because it doesnt contradict the story, but at least its not a random twist like some may think.

First of all, that hazy image that barely represents a planet looks nothing like Earth, let alone "identical" to it. Also, where did you get that image from? Some ancient Norse myth book I take it? Norse mythology has no connections to Earth, by the way.

What influences did Norse mythology have on XIII, other than the typical FF refrences?

FF has always had nods to norse mythology through summons, names and places. But never has it influenced the story in such a way such as this. Seeing as the Norse refrences are in the background, the fact that they go to Earth is completely out of context.

It's not even that it's Earth, just at how poor the ending is. It's one big plot device that would be better suited for Kingdom Hearts. I know it's a fantasy and it lets the writers do some wacky stuff, but you've got to have restrictions or it just becomes silly (KH). FFXIII was fairly well structured with nothing too out of the ordinary, but when you start doing crazy-magic-god stuff it makes the plot hard to believe or take seriously.

And when I asked you how they pulled it off you didn't even know.

 

[Storm]

First of all, that hazy image that barely represents a planet looks nothing like Earth, let alone "identical" to it. Also, where did you get that image from? Some ancient Norse myth book I take it? Norse mythology has no connections to Earth, by the way.

Midgard is the Earth in germanic cosmology (the world inhabited by humans), and no, that "hazy image" is a in-game screenshot, and the planet looks like Earth at least to me lol.

What influences did Norse mythology have on XIII, other than the typical FF refrences?

The main influences I can think about are Ragnarok (XIII), Valhalla (XIII-2), and Yggdrasil (LR), but there are others.

It's not even that it's Earth, just at how poor the ending is. It's one big plot device that would be better suited for Kingdom Hearts. I know it's a fantasy and it lets the writers do some wacky stuff, but you've got to have restrictions or it just becomes silly (KH). FFXIII was fairly well structured with nothing too out of the ordinary, but when you start doing crazy-magic-god stuff it makes the plot hard to believe or take seriously.

And when I asked you how they pulled it off you didn't even know.

What suits or not for you is subjective.

 

[Mark]

Midgard is the Earth in germanic cosmology (the world inhabited by humans)-

But not our Earth. It's described completely differently from our Earth.

...that "hazy image" is a in-game screenshot-

So nothing to do with Norse mythology then.

The main influences I can think about are Ragnarok (XIII)

Which is in FFVI, VIII, and XI, of the top of my head.

Valhalla (XIII-2)

Also in FF Legend II.

Yggdrasil (LR)

Also in Dimensions.

So you see, LR is no different than any other FF, So your claim that it's somehow more steeped in Norse mythology than the rest is a lie.

 

[Storm]

But not our Earth. It's described completely differently from our Earth.

It was how they envisioned Earth, but they were still making reference to the world of humans (the world they lived, our planet).

So nothing to do with Norse mythology then.

The image presents Yggdrasil, so there's something to do with it, lol.

So you see, LR is no different than any other FF, So your claim that it's somehow more steeped in Norse mythology than the rest is a lie.

Which FF makes the most use of Norse mythos was never the point here, and it doesnt change the fact that XIII games have steeped heavily in norse mythology.

 

[Fleur]

I might have said this already, but I see allusions to the Norse, but not quite a Norse theme going on. And even then, some of the choices are a bit odd. Sure, Valhalla as grand domain of a deity that adjudicates the dead might fit a bit, but the choice of Odin as a horse summon? A bit of an incongruous one there. Sleipnir perhaps, but not Odin.

Besides, if I'm really pushing it, I picture Gran Pulse as being Jotunheim - especially seeing Titan and all the other giant monstrosities - and Midgard being umm, well, Cocoon? Sure, there are demigods, but it is mostly inhabited by humans, who seek refuge from the giants in the other realm, and in danger of being destroyed come the day of something called Ragnarok.

 

[Alleo]

I agree with Fleur and Mark. It does take some things of the norse mythology but it`s not following it right.
Not only is Odin not a horse in the mythology he is even the main god there. (And also a war god and a death god) He had a horse called Sleipnir with 8 legs but was not the horse itself but I can see why they choose his name for Lightning´s eidolon. Vallhalla is also not the realm of the death but a place for fallen warriors. They fight there all day and at the evening they drink and eat the valkyrie are nothing more than "maids", serving them their meals. Vallhalla is only part of the realm called Asgard, the home of the gods. So Etro should has her home in Asgard not in Vallhalla. The realm of the death in the norse mythology is called Hel. So this is another point where it´s completely different to the game. Odin is the main god but in this game he is nothing more than a creation of Etro, who is the godess of death. The only names that are from the norse mythology were Odin, Brynhild and the fenriswolf. None of those three have the same role in the games that they have in the legend. The tree Yggdrasil has three layers, one is the realm of the gods (could not find the english name for it ), the second one is the earth and the last one the underworld. But each of this realms have different worlds. Asgard and Vallhalla are part of the realm of the gods. Midgard, Jötunheim, Utgard and Muspellsheim (I used our german names for them) are part of the earth realm and Schwarzalbenheim, Niflheim, Hvergelmir and Hel are part of the underworld. The problem is that they are already existing. Midgard is the home of the humans and even that world has two levels. The inner world were the humans lived and the outer world were the demons and giants lived. Separated from Midgard is Jötunheim, the world of the giants. So like Fleur said, this kinda reminds me of Cocoon and Gran Pulse.

Ragnarök is not a monster but just the name of that day, where the death warriors of vallhalla and the gods of Asgard fought against the demons and giants. The god Thor fought against the midgar snake and Odin against Fenris. Fenris killed him but Odin´s son avenged him. After that Midgar was drown and only two humans survived. But it raised himself out of the water and was made into a better world and the two humans created the new human race. The problem is that unlike Gran Pulse it was still the same planet (or at least I thought it was meant that way ). Kinda like the biblical flood. Odin was reborn again as another god.

So many things are kinda different so I just can´t see that they really followed the norse mythology. Maybe they suddenly thought that they could use even more of it but it´s just strange for me.
I really hope that I didn´t embarrass myself with this post I only read about the legend today so I hope this is not wrong. In the end this is only my opinion and I hope I didn´t sound mean. (I can see why it looks like they just used the legend and maybe they really did it but it just doesn´t feel right for me )

I do have a question about the ending.
Maybe it was explained in the game but how was it possible that the fought alongside their eidolons? Not only were they normal humans so they should not have been able to summon their esper and we were told that thanks to etro´s death they can´t exist in their real form. So how it´s even possible that they are all there. And what happend with them? Will they be reborn as humans or did they just stop existing.

 

[Mark]

Which FF makes the most use of Norse mythos was never the point here, and it doesnt change the fact that XIII games have steeped heavily in norse mythology.

And again, no more than any other FF, so to have that massive plot twist right at the end is out of context.

 

[Storm]

And again, no more than any other FF, so to have that massive plot twist right at the end is out of context.

That's what you think, I disagree, but like I said its not the point here.

We're talking about Lightning Returns, if other FF titles were inspired by norse mythos at the same level ok. Each game makes use of the mythos in a different manner, so there is no sense in using other titles as parameters to define what is out of context or not for another game with another story and take of the mythos.

Since when did a game have to religiously follow a certain mythology that exists in our world? It is Final Fantasy.
Tomb Raider Underworld did the same thing, took a few liberties to tell its story. LR doesn't have to be any different.

Exactly, taking inspiration or using certain elements obviously its not the same as depicting everything literally.

 

[Griffin 325]

Spoiler

I really don't get why lots of the characters in the XIII series originally say stuff like "I have to atone for my sins" then later they kill the god of their universe. It doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Griffin 325]

...What?

Paraphrase of Lightning and Vanille. lol Definitely not word for word. Needless to say, the ideology of the final game and its ending doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Mark]

That's what you think, I disagree-

It's not a matter of disagreeing. You tried to explain how LR was "heavily" steeped in Norse mythology, I gave you counter examples to show that they have always been in FF, they're just refrences.

Each game makes use of the mythos in a different manner-

No, they all use the mythos in the same way: a refrence that is outwith the story. All in all, LR tried to bring a plot element into the story that was completely irrelevent throughout the story. You can't have small refrences to Norse myths in a game that's also in the rest of the FF series and take it into the LR's story. That's out of context, end of.

Exactly, taking inspiration or using certain elements obviously its not the same as depicting everything literally.

And Norse myth had nothing to do with LR's ending.

 

[NemesisSP]

Spoiler

You know what, I DON'T hate the ending. I think the ending is absolutely fine with the way it is. Yes, it's kind of dumb, but you know what, our planet doesn't have any completely, disgusting manipulative gods like their world did. It's a truly new start for them.

Reading this entire thread made me realize something. It's not Toriyama or anyone in Square Enix that's at fault, it's the fans like the ones I see on here. And yes, this is an insult because it's true, you guys are so busy being nasty to each other and the writers it makes reading and searching for something related to this franchise just painful, who knows what it must be like for the developers who desperately want to give them what they want while staying true to the core of Final Fantasy. And no, the core of Final Fantasy isn't a specific thing they did, like with Final Fantasy IV or VI or VII. It isn't a specific gameplay mechanic. It's the idea of always changing, always growing, but retaining elements from other titles while putting their own spin on things. What's missing isn't something that I think Final Fantasy will ever be able to get back, even if Final Fantasy XV was the greatest thing to ever be created. And it's a unified group of individuals who are willing to also grow with the series. I'm not even sure if they ever had that, judging by how bad things have gotten. We've been listed as one of the worst fandoms in gaming, that should say something. That's real cause for alarm.

Storytelling and characters are subjective and open to differing opinions. That's always going to be present in everything. The stories for Final Fantasy XIII perhaps are not the greatest, but they are pretty good when you aren't looking for the flaws. And people do look for flaws in order to validate their arguments. The ending could have had them pop up in FF7 and those people would be pissed, they could become the world of either Final Fantasy Type-0 (a reverse of an older idea for XIII-2) or the basis of Final Fantasy XV and you'd still be complaining that it is the worst ending ever. You know, it couldn't even be our Earth, it could be a world that looks like our Earth, but is much different. And while the Norse Myth didn't have much to do with the game outside of a few references, just saying that it had no effect on the story throws out great potential at what they could have been going for. You're so desperate to validate your opinion that you won't even accept anyone else's opinions or interpretations. And the people saying "They only show Lightning, so that means the others must have died" that doesn't mean they did at all, it just means they wanted a simple epilogue. Nothing wrong with that, films, games and books do that all the time and it leaves open to interpretations.

And if someone wants to tell me I'm being hypocritical, don't bother. I FREELY admit that I have games in the franchise that I don't like. I don't particularly care for Final Fantasy XII. But it's only because it's combat system, which is potentially far more automated than XIII just does nothing for me, and because I couldn't care for any of the characters or the story. I actually liked the characters of Final Fantasy XIII, I thought they were very strong characters, so I'm okay with them getting a happy ending, even if that happy ending is going to a new world that's completely different from theirs, but to be honest, wouldn't that have been the same if they had gone to a world more like their original world? It still would be new and unknown to them. But the point of the ending is that they can build a new life and make a better future for themselves, which I thought was absolutely fitting, no matter what world it is. And you can't say that in our world they can't do that, because anyone can.

 

[Alleo]

I really love final fantasy 13 but that does not mean that I don´t have things that I didn´t like. There are forums were people are just bashing the series just for the fun. That´s not nice and I dislike such behavior. But this (in my opinion) did not happen here. This is a forum for discussion and if people did not like the ending then they are free to write about it. How bad would it be if we only could write here if we liked everything. And if somebody wrote something and another person did not see it that way and answer it then its okay too. As long as they don´t throw insults to each other. And just for reference: I don´t hate the ending but I also don´t love it

Reading this entire thread made me realize something. It's not Toriyama or anyone in Square Enix that's at fault, it's the fans like the ones I see on here. And yes, this is an insult because it's true, you guys are so busy being nasty to each other and the writers it makes reading and searching for something related to this franchise just painful, who knows what it must be like for the developers who desperately want to give them what they want while staying true to the core of Final Fantasy. And no, the core of Final Fantasy isn't a specific thing they did, like with Final Fantasy IV or VI or VII. It isn't a specific gameplay mechanic. It's the idea of always changing, always growing, but retaining elements from other titles while putting their own spin on things. What's missing isn't something that I think Final Fantasy will ever be able to get back, even if Final Fantasy XV was the greatest thing to ever be created. And it's a unified group of individuals who are willing to also grow with the series. I'm not even sure if they ever had that, judging by how bad things have gotten. We've been listed as one of the worst fandoms in gaming, that should say something. That's real cause for alarm.

I don´t really see your point not only are you insulting the people who don´t like the ending but you also write like we don´t see it as a Final Fantasy. I can only talk for me but I love it and will still love it but that doesn´t mean that I can dislike the ending. Nobody really wrote something about the core of Final Fantasy, this is only about the ending...

And if someone wants to tell me I'm being hypocritical, don't bother. I FREELY admit that I have games in the franchise that I don't like. I don't particularly care for Final Fantasy XII. But it's only because it's combat system, which is potentially far more automated than XIII just does nothing for me, and because I couldn't care for any of the characters or the story. I actually liked the characters of Final Fantasy XIII, I thought they were very strong characters, so I'm okay with them getting a happy ending, even if that happy ending is going to a new world that's completely different from theirs, but to be honest, wouldn't that have been the same if they had gone to a world more like their original world? It still would be new and unknown to them. But the point of the ending is that they can build a new life and make a better future for themselves, which I thought was absolutely fitting, no matter what world it is. And you can't say that in our world they can't do that, because anyone can.

But we did not even wrote something about the combat system or the characters. We only discussed the ending and if we liked it or not. (I think its great that people write their reasons why they don´t like it better then just one liners)
So you have no problem with that and that completely fine but that does not mean that this makes it impossible to dislike it. Maybe there would be people who would still dislike it even if its a completely new world but thats fine too..Ehren for example pointed out that he does not like that this is earth without gods. And I agree with him. (Also have my belief and find it odd that they just say that this world has no gods.) And it´s okay if you don´t need the others in the epilogue but some may love the rest of the cast even more and may have hoped to see a glimpse of them. I don´t see anything wrong with that wish.. For characters it would be a new world but for me it kinda "destroys" the part about the fantasy (no more chocobos, moogles etc. )

Your post kinda reminds me about some amazon review commentary. Some people don´t give a great game 5 stars and wrote in their review why they did not find it perfect (and also say that this is just their opinion) and they still get quite a lot of comments how bad that reviewer is and how he can dare to criticize something in this game and how dare he only gives it 3 or 4 stars...and here it´s a discussion about the ending with people just saying their own opinion and you just come and insult them..(you even wrote that this is insulting..). As long as nobody just come here to bash a game they are free to say their opinion and if a lot of people dislike it then you still have to accept that.

I agree that maybe the discussion about the norse mythology may have been going on long enough but anyone just can stop to reply to those posts and discuss other points. I did ask some questions in my posts (for example how the eidolons where even there and what happened with them, but nobody really answered that. Maybe nobody knows it right now because it´s in Japanese but we could just discuss some theories. )

(I also find this petition to change the ending childish because in the end it´s the game of square enix and they can do whatever they want, but this doesn´t mean that I can´t wrote that I still don´t like it

 

[Somber]

I enjoy games. I do not judge. I know there are many flaws in Lightning Saga but I don't act aggressive. Flaws are things we can't change by saying rude words or complaining. Games are made by people, not god. Even god's creations were insulted. Too bad that people nowadays tend to change everything to what they want.

 

[Somber]

In Buddhism, souls are passed with each life. Every soul can end up being angels, humans, demons and even animals (according to what they had done in their past). With the exception of Buddha, every humans' soul were cleansed before rebirth. They do not remember past lives' events. Buddha had spent 4 infinity and 100000 worlds. But because of his supreme wisdom, he remember every one of his former self. There are also some people who remember their past lives (you may know that are labelled as 'paranormal' by many people, many religion).

So, Lightning is definitely reborn as a human on "Earth". But we can say that she remember her past life (Maybe because she was the savior?). But I don't agree saying "Epilogue does not make sense". Final Fantasy isn't a reality show. And isn't "pure" norse. Anything could be mixed up.