Just How Much Content Should Be Added For the Game to Feel Complete?

[Jubileus]

With new videos showing people glitching their way past Cartanica and exploring Niflheim, I thought I'd start a thread and get a discussion going about the extent of how much content SE should add to the game, and the reception for said added content.

There are 2 ways SE could go about this now:

1/ Add in 1-3 hours of extra story scenes.

Not much changes in the overall game save for additional cutscenes.

2/ Massive overhaul of the current game.

Niflheim is explorable (looking at the Cartanica videos Storm posted in another thread), Tenebrae scenario changed so that it gets destroyed AFTER the gang arrive and do some exploring there for story purposes, Leviathan battle has additional stages, World of Ruin chapter is greatly extended and we have to find the bros instead of them being at Hammerhead etc etc.



Now here's what I've been thinking.

If SE did a massive overhaul to the game and introduced extensive additions, and changed some scenes around a tiny bit to accommodate said changes but still keeping to the structure it has now to a degree, how would fans receive that?

Would it damage the FF brand?

I'm been reading some comments online, and I can definitely see that the demand for a "complete" game with Insomnia, Tenebrae, Niflheim, and World of Ruin being explorable is insane. Heck a lot of people said they'd gladly pay for another copy of the game if it was the fully complete version.

I can see some people being absolutely thrilled if the game went through a massive overhaul with it's updates (I know I would be), but then I can see people saying SE dropped the ball on quality, they should've done all of this to begin with, they feel cheated buying the game day one. and would probably blast the brand for "falling from grace."

It's a double edged sword in that SE are going to be cautious with adding TOO much because they know there will be massive backlash if they do, yet they probably do want to add in a shit tonne of stuff because all the material is there and they wanna do it for the fans.



So what are your thoughts on this?

Should they play it safe with minor additions, or go full out? Also what do you think the reception for either situations will be?

 

[ChrisB]

If they go all out people will feel they have wasted there time playing what they already have, I've finished the story and basically nearly done everything and 150 hours in, if I had to start all over again I'd be abit annoyed,
They could input smaller things like few extra scenes and more explorable places as I've seen the videos of people exploring outside the map and I'd like to explore insomnia more and tenebrae and niffelhiem also be ale to fly any where as it pushes you away when you try fly outside the map area
That's what I'd like

 

[Storm]

i think unless the content would be provided for free there would be a high negative impact

one way they could do it is waiting for the PC release to add a lot of content

i don't think the game really need that much cutscene time to be honest, a few Luna and Ravus cutscenes would do wonders already; they also can expand the story with the Episode series.

about explorable areas, the second half need smaller areas to feel more complete; it's baffling how you see the malboro dungeon which is not even that far from the station but you get there instanly by using an elevator that teleports you there lol

the game seriously need more content to make the map feel less empty, add lore and so on...

 

[Ikkin]

I think the best way to handle it would be the KHIIFM+ method -- add a bunch of extra cutscenes and a few scenario expansions, but nothing too expansive. Like, making the drive from Cartanica to the Malboro dungeon playable is a no-brainer, though allowing the player too much freedom on that drive would result in ludonarrative dissonance, so it'd either have to be pure driving (with an extra conversation along the way) or the game would have to highly incentivize not stopping. Likewise, if there was a nearly-finished dungeon for Shiva, working it back into the story probably wouldn't cause too many issues. There'd be a bit more added than KHIIFM+'s Roxas fight, but it'd be on the same level -- stuff that had to have happened but we didn't get to play, or at least could have happened at the same time as what we played without contradicting anything.

As nice as it would be to have the entire world expanded, it'd fly in the face of the game's themes. Because, really, if you think about it, from Noct's perspective, the entirety of the Niflheim journey is miserable and unfair, and in the end he's commanded to die before he even has a chance to live. There's actually a strange sort of resonance in having tons of stuff out there that you can see but not touch, as disappointing as that is. XD;

 

[Storm]

I think the best way to handle it would be the KHIIFM+ method -- add a bunch of extra cutscenes and a few scenario expansions, but nothing too expansive. Like, making the drive from Cartanica to the Malboro dungeon playable is a no-brainer, though allowing the player too much freedom on that drive would result in ludonarrative dissonance, so it'd either have to be pure driving (with an extra conversation along the way) or the game would have to highly incentivize not stopping. Likewise, if there was a nearly-finished dungeon for Shiva, working it back into the story probably wouldn't cause too many issues. There'd be a bit more added than KHIIFM+'s Roxas fight, but it'd be on the same level -- stuff that had to have happened but we didn't get to play, or at least could have happened at the same time as what we played without contradicting anything.

As nice as it would be to have the entire world expanded, it'd fly in the face of the game's themes. Because, really, if you think about it, from Noct's perspective, the entirety of the Niflheim journey is miserable and unfair, and in the end he's commanded to die before he even has a chance to live. There's actually a strange sort of resonance in having tons of stuff out there that you can see but not touch, as disappointing as that is. XD;

poor guy couldn't even touch luna

 

[Ikkin]

poor guy couldn't even touch luna

That's a good example of what I'm talking about, actually. XD; As much as people want the game to add at least one scene where they get to see each other, it's thematically critical that it not happen. Anything added to the Noct/Luna relationship would have to be either flashbacks to when they saw each other as kids*, or near-misses that just make the final outcome even more frustrating. =(

* I'd love to see at least one scene where each of them cheer the other up when the other's duties are eating away at them, because it'd really help solidify that they're more concerned with that sort of comfort than straight-up romance. And then they should have a scene or two where they're just having fun, without thinking about their respective callings.

 

[Jubileus]

Thank so for the responses guys.

Tbh the additions mentioned do sound pretty substantial. Shiva dungeon, Cartanica being explorable etc etc seems like a big deal to me. So I think they might as well go all out and make the second half as originally intended.

I think the devs would've been bummed at having to short cut things but hopefully now they're able to fulfill their vision for the game's story.

I'm more of the all or nothing mentality in that, since they promised to patch the story, they may as well do an astounding job and add in everything they want instead of holding back and being scared of backlash.

There's backlash no matter what they do since the fanbase is so crazy at times.

If it turns out the additions will bump the game from an 8/10 game to a 9.5/10 game, then I don't see why not.

I read on rpgsite that apparently you were meant to meet up with Cor before the Malboro dungeon segment and travel solo with him for a bit IIRC. As in you can explore the area of Niflheim a bit.

Rumours that you weren't meant to hop on a train instantly the moment you get to Niflheim kinda reinforces this.

The thread Storm created and shared about Cartanica, with the scenery being updated and including roads, makes it seem like they're already working on that area.

 

[Jubileus]

It's making the rounds now.

Altissia, Niflheim, World of Ruin glitches that allow players to explore the maps are being talked about on forums and published as articles on gaming sites.

The sentiment of "what could've been" and demand for stuff to be added into the game is there in nearly every thread I go into.

Fans want the stuff to be added into the base game, but not DLC from what I'm reading.

Some people are even posting the videos of the glitches on the official FFXV Twitter account.

This makes me wonder, what are the dev team going through right now?

I think they have an inkling as to what fans are saying about the game, and it makes me wonder how they will respond.

Since the game is selling well, will the higher ups allocate more resources for this games further development?

I find myself quite intrigued by all this, and sincerely hope it turns out well for fans and devs alike.

 

[Lulcielid]

Fans want the stuff to be added into the base game, but not DLC from what I'm reading.

WTF!? What's the reasonimg here? It doesn't make sense, unless what they're trying to say is "free or GTFO greedy ashole".

Re World of Ruin:
How extensive would the overhaul be here?

I've been reading some comments going as far as demanding to the whole Eos ("as was intended" with the cut content) to be explorable like in pre-chapter 9, which to me sounds like a waste of resources.

 

[Storm]

The sentiment of "what could've been" and demand for stuff to be added into the game is there in nearly every thread I go into.

Fans want the stuff to be added into the base game, but not DLC from what I'm reading.

Some people are even posting the videos of the glitches on the official FFXV Twitter account.

This makes me wonder, what are the dev team going through right now?

this, fans need to be vocal right now, that's the only way.

 

[Lulcielid]

this, fans need to be vocal right now, that's the only way.

Hopefuly their vocal actions translate to thoughtful suggestions and not batshit crazy demands.

 

[llazy77]

A massive overhaul of the game is needed, or at least the second half. It was far too short imo. Tabata orginally said the main game would be completed in 50 hours. Yet it is about 20 hours for the average person. This tells that way more content was planned. As well as the 4chan leaker who apperanlty worked on the game and the glitches tell of tons of cut areas and scenarios. Like the shiva Dungeon and the snow area in the Nifliheim glitch could be this. Also think that at least some of Tenabre should be explorable. As well as the world of ruin, which even Ray Chase talked about in a interview that he wanted so we might see it being added.

As nice as it would be to have the entire world expanded, it'd fly in the face of the game's themes. Because, really, if you think about it, from Noct's perspective, the entirety of the Niflheim journey is miserable and unfair, and in the end he's commanded to die before he even has a chance to live. There's actually a strange sort of resonance in having tons of stuff out there that you can see but not touch, as disappointing as that is. XD;

The world was originally going to be bigger though until things were cut, it wont really be expanded as much as adding in what was originally planned to be there.

i think unless the content would be provided for free there would be a high negative impact
.

Even so alot of people would be happy to play more content, but yes I think it should be free since it was cut because of time constraints.

WTF!? What's the reasonimg here? It doesn't make sense, unless what they're trying to say is "free or GTFO greedy ashole".

Well it was originally planned to be in the 60 dollar release it should be in the game

i don't think the game really need that much cutscene time to be honest, a few Luna and Ravus cutscenes would do wonders already; they also can expand the story with the Episode series.

I could use a few more cg cutscenes, they only gave us three way too little for a FF game.

this, fans need to be vocal right now, that's the only
way.

I completely agree with this, im sure Square is reading forums talking notes of what they should add, Tabata and his team have been very good at taking feedback.

Hopefuly their vocal actions translate to thoughtful suggestions and not batshit crazy demands.

Alot was cut so alot needs to be added. As for even more to be added they could add more dlc packs and what not.

 

[Jubileus]

WTF!? What's the reasonimg here? It doesn't make sense, unless what they're trying to say is "free or GTFO greedy ashole".

Re World of Ruin:
How extensive would the overhaul be here?

I've been reading some comments going as far as demanding to the whole Eos ("as was intended" with the cut content) to be explorable like in pre-chapter 9, which to me sounds like a waste of resources.

From what I'm reading, the fans are aware that the game was rushed and content was cut.

It's gotten to a point of "no doubt about it" and they want the full game because it's not fair they received an unfinished game.

Leaks from 4chan about the Shiva tomb / potential fight, Cartanica being explorable because it looked complete, and Altissia areas and outer regions need to be added because these events and areas are already part of the main game, and thus need to be fleshed out from what I'm reading.

These demands are reasonable and do make sense (although very harshly written)

Other demands consist of making Tenebrae and Insomnia explorable, which is more difficult to add in since I can't see how they can be added into the main scenario without having to rewrite some stuff around.

Through Noctis dreams that act as flashbacks perhaps?

As in Noctis can dream that he's reliving a pleasant memory of a scenario that involves the bros and can offer deeper insight into their past life in Lucis sounds alright? Doesn't interfere with the main scenario this way.


As for WoR, I've read that originally it was intended for Noctis to go out and find the bros one by one and slowly learn what happened throughout the 10 years that way.

WoR Lestallum is apparently complete so having access to that town is alright.

I don't think the entire Lucis map should be accessible since that would be difficult, but a small area with some extra stuff like side quests where we can learn more about the time skip events should be ok.

It's a lot to take in for sure. Devs must be frantic right about now since they got their work cut out for them.

 

[Jubileus]

this, fans need to be vocal right now, that's the only way.

Agreed. They do need to speak out about it and let the dev team know.

However it's as lulcielid said:

Hopefuly their vocal actions translate to thoughtful suggestions and not batshit crazy demands.

There is a right way and a wrong way to ask for something.

I hope fans word their demands with more tact instead of screaming abuse. The official forums was a cesspool of abuse, profanity and ridiculous demands for a time.

Perhaps thats why the site is still under maintenance.

 

[Ikkin]

Thank so for the responses guys.

Tbh the additions mentioned do sound pretty substantial. Shiva dungeon, Cartanica being explorable etc etc seems like a big deal to me. So I think they might as well go all out and make the second half as originally intended.

I think the devs would've been bummed at having to short cut things but hopefully now they're able to fulfill their vision for the game's story.

I'm more of the all or nothing mentality in that, since they promised to patch the story, they may as well do an astounding job and add in everything they want instead of holding back and being scared of backlash.

What does "as originally intended" mean?

Obviously, reinstating a near-complete Shiva dungeon or a near-complete drive to the Cartanica dungeon would fall into that category if such things were, in fact, cut for time. There are clear parallels to the Roxas fight from KHIIFM+ or the Secret Episode from KHBbSFM there, in that those segments would expand on what's already there without really changing the events that take place.

But those sorts of things are totally different from making major narrative changes to include open world segments that no longer fit with the story being told. At a certain point, concepts that existed early on are no longer relevant -- there's no place for Detective Joe in FFVII as it presently exists. And I'd argue that's the case with open-world Niflheim, if such a thing was ever intended in the first place.

Because, really, the Niflheim section of the story, as it currently exists, is designed around the game's limitations. Noct is a fugitive in enemy territory, the world is falling apart around him, and while he's on an express train towards his destiny, he always arrives too late and and is forced to make due with the aftermath. Allowing him to take on hunts and explore optional dungeons in the middle of that would be incoherent (hence the inclusion of Umbra), and making it coherent would require the story to be completely rewritten.

My suspicion is that at some point relatively early on, the devs decided that, since it was never going to be possible to satisfy the people who wanted to explore everything, they'd just have to make a story in which being miserable and feeling cheated by the Powers That Be was the actual point. Because as frustrating as it is, a full open-world map which you can only see from the windows of a train is a pretty effective mechanical parallel to Noct's experience. XD;

In other words, "Give us the full open-world!" is the new "Let us revive Aerith!" There are ways to work around the loss in both cases, but changing an existing story to render the loss irrelevant isn't the right way to go about it.

 

[Lulcielid]

What does "as originally intended" mean?

These words triggered some questions into my mind.

Currently we´re all blaming the game being "rushed/lack of budget/lack of time" as to why stuff got cut but I question, how far can we use this as an explanation? Was it cut because of the above? or Was it cut because the dev team just concluded that they were meaningless aditions in the overall experience?

 

[llazy77]

What does "as originally intended" mean?

Obviously, reinstating a near-complete Shiva dungeon or a near-complete drive to the Cartanica dungeon would fall into that category if such things were, in fact, cut for time. There are clear parallels to the Roxas fight from KHIIFM+ or the Secret Episode from KHBbSFM there, in that those segments would expand on what's already there without really changing the events that take place.

But those sorts of things are totally different from making major narrative changes to include open world segments that no longer fit with the story being told. At a certain point, concepts that existed early on are no longer relevant -- there's no place for Detective Joe in FFVII as it presently exists. And I'd argue that's the case with open-world Niflheim, if such a thing was ever intended in the first place.

Because, really, the Niflheim section of the story, as it currently exists, is designed around the game's limitations. Noct is a fugitive in enemy territory, the world is falling apart around him, and while he's on an express train towards his destiny, he always arrives too late and and is forced to make due with the aftermath. Allowing him to take on hunts and explore optional dungeons in the middle of that would be incoherent (hence the inclusion of Umbra), and making it coherent would require the story to be completely rewritten.

My suspicion is that at some point relatively early on, the devs decided that, since it was never going to be possible to satisfy the people who wanted to explore everything, they'd just have to make a story in which being miserable and feeling cheated by the Powers That Be was the actual point. Because as frustrating as it is, a full open-world map which you can only see from the windows of a train is a pretty effective mechanical parallel to Noct's experience. XD;

In other words, "Give us the full open-world!" is the new "Let us revive Aerith!" There are ways to work around the loss in both cases, but changing an existing story to render the loss irrelevant isn't the right way to go about it.

They didnt decide early on that they were going to cut all the content, if you read the employee 4chan leaks you can see it planned even in the last few months on development to put in alot of areas that weren't included but they just ran out of time. It seems like you are trying to damage control for it.

 

[Jubileus]

What does "as originally intended" mean?

Obviously, reinstating a near-complete Shiva dungeon or a near-complete drive to the Cartanica dungeon would fall into that category if such things were, in fact, cut for time. There are clear parallels to the Roxas fight from KHIIFM+ or the Secret Episode from KHBbSFM there, in that those segments would expand on what's already there without really changing the events that take place.

But those sorts of things are totally different from making major narrative changes to include open world segments that no longer fit with the story being told. At a certain point, concepts that existed early on are no longer relevant -- there's no place for Detective Joe in FFVII as it presently exists. And I'd argue that's the case with open-world Niflheim, if such a thing was ever intended in the first place.

Because, really, the Niflheim section of the story, as it currently exists, is designed around the game's limitations. Noct is a fugitive in enemy territory, the world is falling apart around him, and while he's on an express train towards his destiny, he always arrives too late and and is forced to make due with the aftermath. Allowing him to take on hunts and explore optional dungeons in the middle of that would be incoherent (hence the inclusion of Umbra), and making it coherent would require the story to be completely rewritten.

My suspicion is that at some point relatively early on, the devs decided that, since it was never going to be possible to satisfy the people who wanted to explore everything, they'd just have to make a story in which being miserable and feeling cheated by the Powers That Be was the actual point. Because as frustrating as it is, a full open-world map which you can only see from the windows of a train is a pretty effective mechanical parallel to Noct's experience. XD;

In other words, "Give us the full open-world!" is the new "Let us revive Aerith!" There are ways to work around the loss in both cases, but changing an existing story to render the loss irrelevant isn't the right way to go about it.

Should they change/tweak the existing story or not is what's fueling debate around the forums and social media sites.

From what I've been reading (I don't participate in other forums), what people mean , and I, when they say "originally intended" could be, as you said, reinstating the Shiva dungeon or the drive to Cartanica.

So expansions, but not changing what's already there.

Of course you have the obnoxious ones who rudely want more of everything, even if it doesn't fit the main scenario.

Shiva, Cartanica and even Altissia demands (as in Noctis and co. Are able to venture into the rest of the other areas on the Altissia map) are reasonable in that no major narrative changes need to be made, only added.

The one scenario that would be difficult to implement is making Tenebrae explorable.

I've seen quite a lot of demand for it, and frankly I'm not sure how the dev team can go about adding it in without changing the scenario that's already in the game.

Tenebrae burns when we arrive. The only way I can see it being added is it isn't burning when we get there, but after. So Noctis and co. Are right in the thick of the battle and witness the aftermath as it happens.

Insomnia is another one, although it's a plus not a necessity. Very difficult to add.

The only way I can see Tenebrae and Insomnia being added into the game without affecting the main narrative is similar to what they did with the Platinum demo.

Noctis can revisit his past memories in a dream state, and we play through the dream state to learn more.

Tenebrae could be when he was a child and was running around and playing with Luna. Or even when he was in a wheelchair.

Insomnia you can relive scenarios where you bond with the guys and learn more about them.

All in all, these additions seem quite difficult to add in, with a lot of work involved even for the reasonable scenarios.

 

[Hey Everyone]

TBH I think Final Fantasy XV should have been a trilogy which would have allowed them to make this game to it's full potential, but I understand why they didn't. Me I just hope that FFXV gets more explorable stuff, and more story related content in time for it's PC Version(which I'm hearing 2018), then maybe a Kingslavie game, because I would think Kingslaive could be made into a game, and play pretty well actually, and who knows maybe that Versus XV actually will happen(If it's a trilogy like orignally intended I'd be excited for it, because it means more Chocobros, and more of this battle system which tbh I might like over all the other FF games at least from what I've played but then again I'm a Kingdom Hearts nut so you know where my biases lie.

 

[llazy77]

TBH I think Final Fantasy XV should have been a trilogy which would have allowed them to make this game to it's full potential, but I understand why they didn't. Me I just hope that FFXV gets more explorable stuff, and more story related content in time for it's PC Version(which I'm hearing 2018), then maybe a Kingslavie game, because I would think Kingslaive could be made into a game, and play pretty well actually, and who knows maybe that Versus XV actually will happen(If it's a trilogy like orignally intended I'd be excited for it, because it means more Chocobros, and more of this battle system which tbh I might like over all the other FF games at least from what I've played but then again I'm a Kingdom Hearts nut so you know where my biases lie.

Everytime Versus XV gets mentioned I smile with happiness. i hope it really happens