Versus XIII/FNC/XV development - Destroying the 10 year myth - Lots of reading

[Ikkin]

Also he changed Regis's story and character model and Im sure the ending was mostly his doing to since its simualar to his other games.

Nomura's been building to an ending where the protagonist

Spoiler

fulfills a prophecy in which he uses the light of the heart of the World to wipe out the corruption that's turning humans into monsters and messing with the stars to renew the world

in Kingdom Hearts for close to a decade.

Spoiler

(If not a decade and a half, given the whole "You are the one who will open the door to the light" thing from the first game.)

And given certain things I've heard about as-yet-untranslated portions of Chi/Unchained Chi, Sora's opposite number might also end up being

Spoiler

the ancient being responsible for that corruption in the first place.

Say what you will about Tabata's reputation, but XV and KH are Half-Identical Twins. =P

 

[xXShuyaXx]

I mentioned this in the FFXV Forums (where it got mostly ignored in the recent days), where I tried to rationalize the whole production, just not as long as this one. And it's quite simple.
First you have to look at the KH series, which is one whole convoluted mess of a story (I love KH), the story is a complete mess where you have to play a prequel released 5 years later to understand the event of the first game for example. However with enough understanding of the overall story, it's has a deep and rich core at it's base. However that is also why Versus/XV could not see it's full potential.

Nomura has a very twisted way of expressing his visions. However, considering the nature of the KH series, creativity was very limited. And looking at KH in a certain perspective, it's very dark. Which is where I think Versus was born, a world with no restraints. I'm sure he had a story set in mind when he started the project, however his mind was elsewhere all the time. Not just because of FFXIII, but he did direct numerous KH games from 2006 to 2014. He went back and forth all the time and because he went out to create those KH games envisioning new plots, he vision continuously evolved. So when he came to work on Versus, he brought with him many different ideas.

Which was the biggest downfall of the project. Development with no real forward progress. They kept reworking on the same things.

Then came the switch to the PS4. A new generation opened new possibilities. New technology allowed for new story telling elements, things that could not be done before. This was their first experience at that. What happens when you are given more choices? Well some try to take all of them. It's not impossible, but it would take a lot of time to complete. So by adding new things, other have to be changed to fit. It's like a puzzle piece, you change add a completely different piece, it's not going to fit, you have change the surrounding pieces to accommodate it. And thus the overall picture continuously changed.

However, the problem does not end there. Nomura was still working on other projects. His head was still not in the right place. So that's where Tabata came in, a man with no concurrent responsibilities. Someone who could sit down get focus just on one project.

So is Nomura to blame? Personally no. No one is really to blame, just overall mismanagement. Starting off at the end of the PS2 era heading into PS3, they tackled new territories, in which they hit many walls. Then coming into the PS4 era, essentially the same thing happened again. If Nomura was to blame for everything, he wouldn't be where he is now. I think his abilities are why he is Directing FFVIIR, because he has a knack for being able to create a great immersive game. However, Versus was just to big to be just a side project alongside many others. So why FFVIIR? I think it's because FFVII already has a existing plot, it's a solid plot already laid out. It will be easier to add things in than a puzzle not even completed. By taking an already existing plot and possibly adding elements that Nomura strived for in Versus, it could result in something amazing.

Or perhaps he'll just become the puppet of KH for eternity.

 

[Jenova]

No he did cut stuff out of the original script but he also changed alot of stuff one was removing stella
View attachment 642
Also he changed Regis's story and character model and Im sure the ending was mostly his doing to since its simualar to his other games.

Stella wasn't changed. She was cut from the game entirely. As were many other elements from Versus XIII in order have it all fit within one game. So my statement stands that Tabata's time was mostly spent truncating this game in order to meet deadlines. He didn't exactly add much to the original vision set out by Nomura. It's still Nomura's original recipe overall, just made with slightly different ingredients in order to get it out quicker by a different chef.

 

[Storm]

No he did cut stuff out of the original script but he also changed alot of stuff one was removing stella
View attachment 642
Also he changed Regis's story and character model and Im sure the ending was mostly his doing to since its simualar to his other games.

he changed regis story? probably but the only thing we knew about previous regis is that he was going to die in the invasion, which is still true in FFXV.

about stella, i don't see her as completely deleted, the right word is repurposed; luna have the same visual traits (hair color, white dress, she's a princess of tenebrae of the house fleuret, have a strong connection to noctis and gentiana is her partner); apparently ravus was also stella's brother.

edit: another comment about gentiana by his designer:

"my Gentiana wouldn't manifest much expressions, she was supposed to be a bit like Lady Oscar for her Marie Antoinette (Stella), always by her side, of few words, but with a gentle and conforting smile." [personality-wise we got nothing different]

a fan was talking about versus/xv and expressed her wish to know about the previous project, he awsered this:

"there were so many stories basted that even if i told you my version, albeit different, it would only be one of many".

 

[All Hail King Bimpy]

Wasn't it confirmed Stella was a ghost? why would a dead person need a living messenger and why could a none special one see her?

and this is what happens when you have a bunch of storytellers in room who aren't on the same page (coughcoughcoughhollywood). sure cool sounding ideas but you guys honestly suck at working together to put them on hardware

 

[Storm]

Wasn't it confirmed Stella was a ghost? why would a dead person need a living messenger and why could a none special one see her?

just one of the many fanfics that will come.

 

[SonOfEtro]

Nomura's been building to an ending where the protagonist

Spoiler

fulfills a prophecy in which he uses the light of the heart of the World to wipe out the corruption that's turning humans into monsters and messing with the stars to renew the world

in Kingdom Hearts for close to a decade.

Spoiler

(If not a decade and a half, given the whole "You are the one who will open the door to the light" thing from the first game.)

And given certain things I've heard about as-yet-untranslated portions of Chi/Unchained Chi, Sora's opposite number might also end up being

Spoiler

the ancient being responsible for that corruption in the first place.

Say what you will about Tabata's reputation, but XV and KH are Half-Identical Twins. =P

Pardon me, but...

Spoiler

I've had the feeling that in KH, Light and Dark are non-sentient and necessary parts of the world and people's hearts, and that Xehanort's ultimately understandable wish to bring balance is what's causing everything. I'm hoping KHIII will end with Sora realizing that Xehanort had a point, but finding a way of redressing the imbalance between light and dark without plunging the worlds into chaos.

 

[Storm]

I mentioned this in the FFXV Forums (where it got mostly ignored in the recent days), where I tried to rationalize the whole production, just not as long as this one. And it's quite simple.
First you have to look at the KH series, which is one whole convoluted mess of a story (I love KH), the story is a complete mess where you have to play a prequel released 5 years later to understand the event of the first game for example. However with enough understanding of the overall story, it's has a deep and rich core at it's base. However that is also why Versus/XV could not see it's full potential.

Nomura has a very twisted way of expressing his visions. However, considering the nature of the KH series, creativity was very limited. And looking at KH in a certain perspective, it's very dark. Which is where I think Versus was born, a world with no restraints. I'm sure he had a story set in mind when he started the project, however his mind was elsewhere all the time. Not just because of FFXIII, but he did direct numerous KH games from 2006 to 2014. He went back and forth all the time and because he went out to create those KH games envisioning new plots, he vision continuously evolved. So when he came to work on Versus, he brought with him many different ideas.

Which was the biggest downfall of the project. Development with no real forward progress. They kept reworking on the same things.

Then came the switch to the PS4. A new generation opened new possibilities. New technology allowed for new story telling elements, things that could not be done before. This was their first experience at that. What happens when you are given more choices? Well some try to take all of them. It's not impossible, but it would take a lot of time to complete. So by adding new things, other have to be changed to fit. It's like a puzzle piece, you change add a completely different piece, it's not going to fit, you have change the surrounding pieces to accommodate it. And thus the overall picture continuously changed.

However, the problem does not end there. Nomura was still working on other projects. His head was still not in the right place. So that's where Tabata came in, a man with no concurrent responsibilities. Someone who could sit down get focus just on one project.

So is Nomura to blame? Personally no. No one is really to blame, just overall mismanagement. Starting off at the end of the PS2 era heading into PS3, they tackled new territories, in which they hit many walls. Then coming into the PS4 era, essentially the same thing happened again. If Nomura was to blame for everything, he wouldn't be where he is now. I think his abilities are why he is Directing FFVIIR, because he has a knack for being able to create a great immersive game. However, Versus was just to big to be just a side project alongside many others. So why FFVIIR? I think it's because FFVII already has a existing plot, it's a solid plot already laid out. It will be easier to add things in than a puzzle not even completed. By taking an already existing plot and possibly adding elements that Nomura strived for in Versus, it could result in something amazing.

Or perhaps he'll just become the puppet of KH for eternity.

totally agree, KH's story is way convoluted; Advent Children was simple and uninspired.

i really don't see why ppl think with such confidence that Versus XIII would be a masterpiece based on few trailers; this is fanboyism at the next level.

 

[Ikkin]

Pardon me, but...

Spoiler

I've had the feeling that in KH, Light and Dark are non-sentient and necessary parts of the world and people's hearts, and that Xehanort's ultimately understandable wish to bring balance is what's causing everything. I'm hoping KHIII will end with Sora realizing that Xehanort had a point, but finding a way of redressing the imbalance between light and dark without plunging the worlds into chaos.

Spoiler: KH talk

Here's the legend that came out of the Keyblade War:

Long ago, people lived in peace, bathed in the warmth of light.
Everyone loved the light. Then people began to fight over it. They wanted to
keep it for themselves. And darkness was born in their hearts. The darkness
spread, swallowing the light and many people's hearts. It covered everything,
and the world disappeared. But small fragments of light survived, in the hearts
of children. With these fragments of light, children rebuilt the lost world.
It's the world we live in now. But the true light sleeps, deep within the
darkness. That's why the worlds are still scattered, divided from each other.
But someday, a door to the innermost darkness will open, and the true light
will return. So, listen, child. Even in the deepest darkness, there will always
be a light to guide you. Believe in the light, and the darkness will never
defeat you. Your heart will shine with its power and push the darkness away.

In other words, light and dark might be counterparts in the Present World, but that's not necessarily the case in the Next World, because darkness didn't exist until just before the fall of the original world.

As for the Next World, here's what we know from Xehanort's Report:

And when Kingdom Hearts is complete, it is said the one who opens its door
will bring about the creation of the Next World. Such a feat is above any human.
Or, to put it a different way: whoever opens that door will be reborn as something
far greater than human.

The one who opens the door to Kingdom Hearts will bring about the creation of the Next World. Sora is the one who will open the door to the light. The prophecy says that the true light will return when the door is opened.

As for Xehanort, there are a number of indications that he's just another (heh) vessel for an existing entity.

"As your flesh bears the sigil, so your name shall be known as that...of a recusant."

The letter X (chi) is the Recusant's Sigil. It's added to the names of people Xehanort has chosen as vessels, hence the anagram-plus-X names given to members of Organization XIII. But Xehanort himself has a name that follows the same pattern -- "Xehanort" is "X" + "Another" or "X" + "No Heart."

And, more importantly, there's one important question raised by the use of the name "Recusant's Sigil" -- who is the Recusant?

A recusant is "a person who refuses to submit to an authority or to comply with a regulation." The Japanese translation of the Recusant's Sigil is the Mark of Heresy. And there's one very obvious individual to whom these names could point -- the sixth apprentice of the Master of Masters, Lux/Luxu (localization pending =P ), the original master of the goat Keyblade which Master Xehanort presently wields.

Young Xehanort's voice actor made it clear that he was instructed to play the role of a Xehanort who was not yet evil. Young Xehanort's lack of the goat Keyblade was also made abundantly clear.

As such, it's very plausible that the lore of XV and KH will end up having almost search-and-replace level similarities:
- King of Light = the one who will open the door to the light
- Immortal Accursed = the Recusant
- Daemons = Heartless
- MTs = artificial Heartless
- The Starscourge = the darkness
- The Crystal = Kingdom Hearts
- The Ring of the Lucii = the X-blade
- Providence = the creation of the Next World

Sora won't die, though. Or, well, he might, but my suspicion is that we'll get a Battle Royale With Cheese where everyone makes heroic sacrifices only to be reborn in the Next World.

 

[SonOfEtro]

Spoiler: KH talk

Here's the legend that came out of the Keyblade War:

Long ago, people lived in peace, bathed in the warmth of light.
Everyone loved the light. Then people began to fight over it. They wanted to
keep it for themselves. And darkness was born in their hearts. The darkness
spread, swallowing the light and many people's hearts. It covered everything,
and the world disappeared. But small fragments of light survived, in the hearts
of children. With these fragments of light, children rebuilt the lost world.
It's the world we live in now. But the true light sleeps, deep within the
darkness. That's why the worlds are still scattered, divided from each other.
But someday, a door to the innermost darkness will open, and the true light
will return. So, listen, child. Even in the deepest darkness, there will always
be a light to guide you. Believe in the light, and the darkness will never
defeat you. Your heart will shine with its power and push the darkness away.

In other words, light and dark might be counterparts in the Present World, but that's not necessarily the case in the Next World, because darkness didn't exist until just before the fall of the original world.

As for the Next World, here's what we know from Xehanort's Report:

And when Kingdom Hearts is complete, it is said the one who opens its door
will bring about the creation of the Next World. Such a feat is above any human.
Or, to put it a different way: whoever opens that door will be reborn as something
far greater than human.

The one who opens the door to Kingdom Hearts will bring about the creation of the Next World. Sora is the one who will open the door to the light. The prophecy says that the true light will return when the door is opened.

As for Xehanort, there are a number of indications that he's just another (heh) vessel for an existing entity.

"As your flesh bears the sigil, so your name shall be known as that...of a recusant."

The letter X (chi) is the Recusant's Sigil. It's added to the names of people Xehanort has chosen as vessels, hence the anagram-plus-X names given to members of Organization XIII. But Xehanort himself has a name that follows the same pattern -- "Xehanort" is "X" + "Another" or "X" + "No Heart."

And, more importantly, there's one important question raised by the use of the name "Recusant's Sigil" -- who is the Recusant?

A recusant is "a person who refuses to submit to an authority or to comply with a regulation." The Japanese translation of the Recusant's Sigil is the Mark of Heresy. And there's one very obvious individual to whom these names could point -- the sixth apprentice of the Master of Masters, Lux/Luxu (localization pending =P ), the original master of the goat Keyblade which Master Xehanort presently wields.

Young Xehanort's voice actor made it clear that he was instructed to play the role of a Xehanort who was not yet evil. Young Xehanort's lack of the goat Keyblade was also made abundantly clear.

As such, it's very plausible that the lore of XV and KH will end up having almost search-and-replace level similarities:
- King of Light = the one who will open the door to the light
- Immortal Accursed = the Recusant
- Daemons = Heartless
- MTs = artificial Heartless
- The Starscourge = the darkness
- The Crystal = Kingdom Hearts
- The Ring of the Lucii = the X-blade
- Providence = the creation of the Next World

Sora won't die, though. Or, well, he might, but my suspicion is that we'll get a Battle Royale With Cheese where everyone makes heroic sacrifices only to be reborn in the Next World.

Meh, guess that's closer to the truth. Never been much of a KH fan. Also, I'm quite into Yin-Yang thinking, so it's probable that I'm putting my own interpretation on something that's quite different in reality.

 

[SonOfEtro]

totally agree, KH's story is way convoluted; Advent Children was simple and uninspired.

i really don't see why ppl think with such confidence that Versus XIII would be a masterpiece based on few trailers; this is fanboyism at the next level.

That's quite true. I may miss what Versus could have been, but I also see that it could have been as big as convoluted or more so than KH. It's just the lure of the unobtainable, like Fortress, Shadow Hearts 3, or Star Wars 1313. Or even what Haerasis might have been.

 

[Ikkin]

Meh, guess that's closer to the truth. Never been much of a KH fan. Also, I'm quite into Yin-Yang thinking, so it's probable that I'm putting my own interpretation on something that's quite different in reality.

To be fair, KH seemed like it was going the pseudo-Yin Yang route (i.e. dark is subordinate to light, but necessary for balance) in CoM and KHII. It's just gotten a lot more apocalyptic in the post-Birth by Sleep era. XD;

(And speaking of Birth by Sleep... it's worth pointing out that Nomura associates sleep with death. >.> "Everyone is waiting for their birth by sleep.")

 

[Nova]

@Ilazy

Original script was already changing even during 2011 and 2013 under Nomura's reign regardless. Stop scapegoating.

Stella already had an even more limited role than Crowe (more of a plot device than a character), which was why they got rid of her in the first place. Luna isn't a straight up improvement but honestly what Stella got going by the rumors sounded far worse imo.

Its unknown what kind of story Regis had. The model thing is ironic given that

Spoiler

chapter 13 flashback had them revert back to his Versus-esque model lol.

 

[xXShuyaXx]

@Ilazy

Original script was already changing even during 2011 and 2013 under Nomura's reign regardless. Stop scapegoating.

Stella already had an even more limited role than Crowe (more of a plot device than a character), which was why they got rid of her in the first place. Luna isn't a straight up improvement but honestly what Stella got going by the rumors sounded far worse imo.

Its unknown what kind of story Regis had. The model thing is ironic given that

Spoiler

chapter 13 flashback had them revert back to his Versus-esque model lol.

If the 2013 trailer is anything to go by, Regis was still alive after the invasion. So most likely he had a much bigger role (being alive).

 

[Ikkin]

If the 2013 trailer is anything to go by, Regis was still alive after the invasion. So most likely he had a much bigger role (being alive).

The 2013 trailer mixed dialogue from the Insomnia invasion with visuals from Altissia. There's no evidence that Regis would have survived the invasion.

Regis' design change was always intended to reflect aging, which is why he still looks like Versus Regis when he's younger. (No spoilers involved; it's shown in the first minute of Kingsglaive and that concept art used on the GameInformer cover.)

As for Stella, I don't believe the "leak" for a second. For one thing, it's entirely inconsistent with what Ferrari said about Gentiana.

 

[Storm]

Stella already had an even more limited role than Crowe (more of a plot device than a character), which was why they got rid of her in the first place. Luna isn't a straight up improvement but honestly what Stella got going by the rumors sounded far worse imo.

hm there's nothing implying that i think, details about stella after versus xiii rebranding are scarce.

what we know is: the plot point about her and noctis meeting for the first time in the party was changed since we saw them running as kids in the 2013 trailer... unless that leak about stella being a ghost it's true (which i highly doubt) and child noctis killed her during that time and dont remember anything about this event in the party.

 

[SonOfEtro]

what we know is: the plot point about her and noctis meeting for the first time in the party was changed since we saw them running as kids in the 2013 trailer... unless that leak about stella being a ghost it's true (which i highly doubt) and child noctis killed her during that time and dont remember anything about this event in the party.

As to Regis' survival, they did say that the content for Kingsglaive was planned while the story was still Versus XIII, and during efforts to consolidate into a single game they turned that segment into a film so they could keep that part without expanding into a multi-game series. I think Regis was planned to die from a fairly early stage.

 

[Bionicle8563]

Hmm, how likely are any of you guys replaying the whole game for the story, if you hear that, 1-2 years later they come out with a patch that has fixed everything. The story is where it should've been, and it all makes sense, and the game if it was reviewed then and there, most reviewers would give it a 10. Honestly, I would play it. Maybe not going and doing all the sidequests again, but I might just go through all the story beats just to experience it in full. (Also I hope by then they fix the NG+ so monsters are harder, or there is a hard mode only unlocked by NG+)

 

[Jubileus]

Hmm, how likely are any of you guys replaying the whole game for the story, if you hear that, 1-2 years later they come out with a patch that has fixed everything. The story is where it should've been, and it all makes sense, and the game if it was reviewed then and there, most reviewers would give it a 10. Honestly, I would play it. Maybe not going and doing all the sidequests again, but I might just go through all the story beats just to experience it in full. (Also I hope by then they fix the NG+ so monsters are harder, or there is a hard mode only unlocked by NG+)

I would replay it again somewhere down the line, even without the patch.

Every FF game I've played, I've replayed to death. But then again I do that with all my games. Never been a "play a title only once or twice" kinda gamer unless that game is reaallly bad and was a chore to finish.

Agree about the NG+. They need to add in an insanely hard mode just for fun
For the NG+ stuff I'd say give them more time to add in more options.

 

[Jubileus]

As to Regis' survival, they did say that the content for Kingsglaive was planned while the story was still Versus XIII, and during efforts to consolidate into a single game they turned that segment into a film so they could keep that part without expanding into a multi-game series. I think Regis was planned to die from a fairly early stage.

Poor Regis.

It seems like no matter what the dude was gonna die D: