Final Fantasy XV: How will it affect the FF franchise?

[DrBretto]

Well, yeah, you're pointing out the futility of their argument perfectly. It's because the core members of that side of the argument don't actually know what it is they really want. But they've repeated that whole TB vs ARPG mantra so many times, the argument became that. That's part of why it'll just keep going in circles. Now you have a bunch of people thinking they need to defend their right to enjoy turn based games from people who they don't even need to defend it from.

And you're right, I'm hoping they do capture a little bit more of that feel with FFXV because it'll squash some of the dumber arguments. I think decisions like adding a fully controllable airship really do wonders in that regard. But some people also need to understand that you just can't recapture the feeling of playing them for the first time, ironically EXCEPT by playing something that's actually new, which is the big irony in this case. This is called chasing the dragon, and while it's a term usually referring to drug abuse, it's the same thing.

You can see this effect in just about every "what's your favorite Final Fantasy" thread in the history of the internet. A lot of people have these strong emotional ties to the one that hit them in the feels first, so to them, those are the objectively better games/styles and anything made since has been a disappointment. This TB vs ARPG debate is rooted in that same thing, but amplified by a decade of mediocrity, and misdirected as TB vs. ARPG. Even though FFXIII is technically an evolution of ATB, it's still actiony, so it gets lumped in.

That is the problem in a nutshell. And the reason you can't talk to some of these people. It's hard to make a rational argument that's fundamentally missing its own point. And the thing is, it's just as impossible to fix. Like a relationship that's just lost its luster, sometimes, it's just time to move on. And that's what Square has been doing. And rightfully so. They have no intentions of screwing over their core fans, it's just that there's no pleasing the malcontents, so it's time to move on from them, and see what new exciting thing they can make to hook a new direction. This is best for everyone, because frankly, it's trying to meet people half way that's going to do them in. They picked a side and they chose the future.

 

[AnGer-dono]

I think the reason why XIII's iteration of the ATB (which itself is strictly spoken not a turn-based system but a time-based one) gets so much flak is that it is neither fish nor fowl. It lacks the full immediacy of a "pure" action system (like XV or Kingdom Hearts), but also the amount of group control most turn-based systems (or time-based systems like ATB and XII's ADBS) offer.

Speaking of XIII and its shortcomings, I hope they get the intro right. One thing that FF usually does well is present its player with the initial agenda of its characters. I think that's very important, as it allows for a quick understanding of what at least an initial goal is. That may or may not change during the course of the game but making an initial mission statement is a good narrative hook (which is why it's used so often).

 

[Lucina]

I believe that it isn't quite right to assume ARPG is a direct evolution of TB. They're so different that they may as well be different genres. It would be as though comparing chess to a fighting game such as Street Fighter and then saying that, since SF still emphasises on strategy but is more fluid, it is therefore superior to chess. That simply isn't how it works, and from my example, I think we can all come to an understanding on where the fundamental difference between an ARPG and TB lies. The feeling of executing based on careful thought and observation is different from the feeling of executing based on muscle memory and quick, educated guesses. You can never change this, and if people's tastes lean to one or the other, then it's no one's business to tell them otherwise.

Another thing about the discussion here is that it neglects to mention cultural factors in regards to ARPG vs TB. You'll see that nearly every JRPG that has released recently is a turn-based RPG, whereas this is almost non-existent for Western RPGs. Both types of RPGs offer different experiences, but it would be naive to think that one is the fashionable experience whilst the other is a relic of the past. The western games do great on a global scale, but look at sales within Japan and you'll see that even a game like The Witcher 3 doesn't do well compared to, perhaps, Sen no Kiseki or Bravely Second. Of course, you can attribute this fact to cultural differences, in which case you may be right, but what remains true is that JRPGs are still leaning towards the turn-based style and have yet to show booming interest toward the style of an action RPG.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the ideas being proposed. I'll admit that I sort of skimmed through the discussion here.

 

[dissasterrific]

Another thing about the discussion here is that it neglects to mention cultural factors in regards to ARPG vs TB. You'll see that nearly every JRPG that has released recently is a turn-based RPG, whereas this is almost non-existent for Western RPGs. Both types of RPGs offer different experiences, but it would be naive to think that one is the fashionable experience whilst the other is a relic of the past. The western games do great on a global scale, but look at sales within Japan and you'll see that even a game like The Witcher 3 doesn't do well compared to, perhaps, Sen no Kiseki or Bravely Second. Of course, you can attribute this fact to cultural differences, in which case you may be right, but what remains true is that JRPGs are still leaning towards the turn-based style and have yet to show booming interest toward the style of an action RPG.

I think this definitely says a lot on the role Final Fantasy plays. Since it is a Japanese RPG in addition to its reputation, a lot of people consider it to be the supposed face of JRPGs. When the franchise was seen to have declined, it was also considered as a reflection of the state of the JRPG industry. And since the term JRPG over time established a certain set of conventions with turn-based systems serving as one of the biggest, people wanted to restrict FF's image within this paradigm. I think this mentality is what actually hurt FFXIII's approach with its battle system; the dev team had such a desire to make the battles work and look like Advent Children's yet they felt restricted with the expectations of a turn-based system. I do love how the Command Synergy Battle turned out, it's actually one of my favorite in the series, but I will admit that it didn't have enough depth and engagement to make the battles fully satisfying especially with the game's visual representation. But now this goal is fulfilled by XV.

What I'm trying to say is, over time within the RPG genre, terms such as JRPGs, WRPGs, etc. have been used to classify games not solely from their place of origin, but more of their common standards. Final Fantasy's intent to keep innovating will eventually place the brand somewhere in between these classifications.

Another thing regarding turn-based: its future on consoles was supposedly FFXII's Active Dimension Battle system, yet it had a polarizing reception by the players. When Xenoblade Chronicles took its core concepts and simplified it while adding action elements, it became more widely accepted and praised. Turn-based isn't really the ideal system for consoles anymore; unless the likes of Hiroyuki Ito comes up with a system to shut down this assumption.