How do you feel about Final Fantasy XV and its marketing reliance on "feedback"?

[Kagari]

As the topic says, I'm interested to see what you guys have to say about Square Enix's constant pushing of this whole "fan feedback" narrative since TGS. Personally I think it's growing stale and I'd like them to actually show off the game based on its own merits just as it did when it was still helmed by Nomura.

Are they so desperately afraid of another FF13 fiasco? Do they not know how to create a game with a confident vision of their own anymore outside their MMOs? What do you think?

 

[yeah_93]

I don't know how honest they are about the matter. I bought the Type-0 Digital version and, surprise, surprise: No feedback code for me or any of the people who purchased the game that way. It's a bit lame. "Yes come on everyone, submit your feedback! Oops, you didn't purchase the physical version, so you don't get a say even if you paid the full $60 price. Sucks for you!"

Also some of the things they are supposed to change are rather... I don't know, common sense? You had to have realized that the camera/targeting system was useless as fuck. Or that having to wait for Noctis to completely finish an animation before he can evade makes combat a drag. You don't need a bunch of fans to tell you that. I was a bit surprised when they said they were going to change Noctis's Batman voice, but then again, that just speaks volumes about how rushed that demo was. And don't get me started on Duscae 2.0.

I wouldn't say they don't know what to do with a game. After all, they have a talented team, and Tabata has already directed two relatively-well received FFs. What bothers me is that both games share many of problems that sunk XIII (Crisis Core: linear, tunnel-like structure, Type-0: Poorly explained story and characters that were rather poor), and that Tabata, for better or worse seems to be following his own vision of the game rather than Nomura's (that may change after the next non-Duscae footage from the game gets shown). I understand SE's nervousness about not releasing a total wreck of a game like what happened with XIV, or having another polarizing game like XIII; but the whole thing doesn't sound entirely true to me. Maybe, once the game gets released and time passes, we'll get the whole story.

 

[Sora96]

When Nomura helmed it though we never heard about it, and Nomura was always wanting stuff beyond the PS3.

In regards to the feedback, yes it's clear they're being careful not to have a repeat of XIII and XIV. I also think in the case of Tabata, in terms of big budget titles he's never worked on one, or at least a mainline title anyway. Tabata's gotta be feeling the pressure and with the exception of the art directors it's an inexperienced core team. I really do wish Kitase had stayed on as co-producer, because while Hashimoto is great he's more business than creative. But I have faith in Tabata, Hazmer and co. I really liked Type-0 HD.

 

[Lulcielid]

(...)and that Tabata, for better or worse seems to be following his own vision of the game rather than Nomura's (that may change after the next non-Duscae footage from the game gets shown)(...)

This claim always bothered me. While yes games tend to change during development, particulary when changing directors, i ask:
What is exactly Nomura's vision to begin with ? How much of the fullpicture of his vision did we know before TGS2014? Also for better or worse, Nomura as an artist may simply have change his vision over the years of development (by his will).

Back on the marketing topic , i think they know what they do, they most likely they already saw the complains coming in the feedback. I'd would worry only if they changed gameplay (drastically), plot or similars just for crybabies.

 

[Sora96]

This claim always bothered me. While yes games tend to change during development, particulary when changing directors, i ask:
What is exactly Nomura's vision to begin with ? How much of the fullpicture of his vision did we know before TGS2014? Also for better or worse, Nomura as an artist simply may simply have change his vision (by his will).

Back on the marketing topic , i think they know what they do, they most likely they already saw the complains coming in the feedback. I'd would worry only if they changed gameplay (drastically), plot or similars just for crybabies.

In regards to the story, wouldn't surprise me if Nojima has had it written or in the most part for years.

 

[Lulcielid]

In regards to the story, wouldn't surprise me if Nojima has had it written or in the most part for years.

I'd like to know when did Nojima finish writing it ?

 

[Kagari]

I don't know how honest they are about the matter. I bought the Type-0 Digital version and, surprise, surprise: No feedback code for me or any of the people who purchased the game that way. It's a bit lame. "Yes come on everyone, submit your feedback! Oops, you didn't purchase the physical version, so you don't get a say even if you paid the full $60 price. Sucks for you!"

Also some of the things they are supposed to change are rather... I don't know, common sense? You had to have realized that the camera/targeting system was useless as fuck. Or that having to wait for Noctis to completely finish an animation before he can evade makes combat a drag. You don't need a bunch of fans to tell you that. I was a bit surprised when they said they were going to change Noctis's Batman voice, but then again, that just speaks volumes about how rushed that demo was. And don't get me started on Duscae 2.0.

I wouldn't say they don't know what to do with a game. After all, they have a talented team, and Tabata has already directed two relatively-well received FFs. What bothers me is that both games share many of problems that sunk XIII (Crisis Core: linear, tunnel-like structure, Type-0: Poorly explained story and characters that were rather poor), and that Tabata, for better or worse seems to be following his own vision of the game rather than Nomura's (that may change after the next non-Duscae footage from the game gets shown). I understand SE's nervousness about not releasing a total wreck of a game like what happened with XIV, or having another polarizing game like XIII; but the whole thing doesn't sound entirely true to me. Maybe, once the game gets released and time passes, we'll get the whole story.

The lack of survey access for digital buyers were a huge oversight for sure. They said they'll add some way for those users to participate but at this point I think it's a little but too late for that to even matter.

And yeah, most of what they went over in the last ATR were things they were doing anyway. I'm not sure why they feel the need to communicate that when we already knew the demo was only half of the intended gameplay mechanics but there it is. The game is still very far off from release at this point and most people should know that - the silence of SE on that part is their own fault really.

I guess my point is I want them to stop trotting out the whole fan feedback charade. I get that some fans like that they're being catered to in marketing speak but FF is starting to stand for Fan Feedback, not Final Fantasy. FF used to be a series that was proud to stand on its own merits whether people liked what they were doing or not.

You only need to look at the vast differences between the Japanese and Western results in the demo survey to see that it's impossible to please everyone.

 

[Lulcielid]

While i see a bit unnecesary this fan feedback, i don't see it very problematic to the series hearing some feedback, because if you think about it the reviews/criticism that players and reviewers said in the past about previous FF game and what Squaresoft and Square-Enix did with each game after that could be considered as fan feedback; difference being that now they are just only asking for it explicity rather than implicity.

 

[LeonBlade]

I don't care about it either way.

 

[Infest]

I don't care about it either way.

ditto.

I only want to see a good product in the end. I don't care if they reach it by taking feedback from the fans or by just doing their own thing. But at least we already have a solid excuse now if the game turns out to be garbage.

 

[Lulcielid]

But at least we already have a solid excuse now if the game turns out to be garbage.

Sorry to ruin it but it won´t happen

 

[Noctis_Caelum]

Hm...I don't know exactly.
One hand, it's good to see that SE is going to listen what their fans want to not fail like in XIII and YES, it's also good to see every month a new footage about this game, but they could spoiler almost everything like in the demo.
I think Tabata is going to go this way.

On the other hand, it's dangerous only to listen to the fans and not to focus to their own vision/concept.
I want to have this way, like Nomura had chosen this one.

I mean it's okay to hear the fans, but it's better keep the core aspects like the story and most of the gameplay.
But it already has changed, like Stella/Luna or Prompto. I'm afraid that there will be even more things they had to change, but I ask myself why?
Why do the developers change things like Stella/Luna?
It's one of the most disappointing thing I read in the FF XV news...

 

[Lulcielid]

Hm...I don't know exactly.
One hand, it's good to see that SE is going to listen what their fans want to not fail like in XIII and YES, it's also good to see every month a new footage about this game, but they could spoiler almost everything like in the demo.
I think Tabata is going to go this way.

On the other hand, it's dangerous only to listen to the fans and not to focus to their own vision/concept.
I want to have this way, like Nomura had chosen this one.

I mean it's okay to hear the fans, but it's better keep the core aspects like the story and most of the gameplay.
But it already has changed, like Stella/Luna or Prompto. I'm afraid that there will be even more things they had to change, but I ask myself why?
Why do the developers change things like Stella/Luna?
It's one of the most disappointing thing I read in the FF XV news...

Even if they don't hear them, games always change during development and so does the vision of an artist(like for instance compare Nomura's concept of Noctis in 2006 and then compare it with Nomura's redesign in the 2011&2013 trailers) that's a fact.

 

[Lucina]

They're identifying their market. Marketing surveys aren't about pleasing everyone, they're about making the best decisions. You get feedback, generate discussion, set initiatives, perhaps learn new ideas. I'd argue that the discovery that Western and Japanese people have different tastes justifies that the feedback was important. The game could have lacked a proper frame-rate as opposed to pretty graphics and the Western audience would complain, for instance. The Japanese weren't that critical of it. It's data, and just data. Sure, the scope of the survey does lead to inaccuracies, as is present with all surveys, but research is not antithetical to the quality of a product. Not unless the team is dead set on turning the problems into a to-do checklist rather than a list of priorities, which I'm sure they're smart enough not to.

There are downsides to this method just as there are downsides to blindly following a particular vision. This world is all about opportunity costs. There is a better decision but never a perfect one. Sometimes it's not so clear whether one is actually better than the other, but I don't think we should be hasty in criticising them for it until results show.

 

[Nova_Somnus]

To answer the OP, I will just repost a comment a user made on an article on the official Square Enix blog about a London FFXV community event where Tabata personally asked 16 fans what they want from FFXV. I 100% agree with the user's views on the matter. Long story short: this pursuit for feedback is just proving that Tabata is an incompetent director of AAA, home console games.

I'm just going to be honest. IMO, hosting an event like this with only 16 people "representing" the FF fanase is absolutely pointless. The FF fanbase is one of the most divided and polarised fandoms in entertainment history. One person's fave FF could be another person's most hated. Therefore, there's no way 16 people would be able to represent what the entire fanbase thinks. Every individual has their own fave FF, and even the top 3 FF games differ widely amongst FF players. If Tabata-san is attempting to cater to every FF fan with FFXV, he's wasting his time. The fanbase is too divided at this point. Heck, I already know people IRL who have already written off the game due to the "boyband" party.

Again, I hate to sound pessimistic on this matter, but all this pursuit for user feedback on FFXV is more damaging than helpful. FFVI and FFVII, two of the most beloved FF games, never relied on user feedback and surveys during their creation. The teams behind them made what they wanted to make and put it out to the masses. The same can be said for FFIX and FFX, which are also both really popular FF games. FFXII isn't as popular, but it also never relied on user feedback during development. The game never resonated with some FF fans, but it still went on to create an entire JRPG sub-genre due to games like Xenoblade following in its footsteps.

My point is a simple one. This seemingly unrelenting pursuit for user feedback and surveys to shape FFXV needs to either stop outright or be greatly toned down. With the way Tabata-san is directing this game, I can honestly say he's not a visionary director. A visionary director would never rely on feedback to shape any part of their work. They'd stick to their guns and trust their own instinct with what they want to make and then put it out and let people judge it. I'm not seeing that at all with Tabata-san, which is a shame, as he rolled like this when directing Type-0. I get the impression that he's selling out with FFXV. He's tailoring his work to the public in pursuit of making it the best selling FF ever. That's no different to a musician selling out their artistic integrity for more sales. A big shame if I ever saw one.

I hope that FFXVI has not even a sand grain of user feedback to influence its creation, especially if Hiroyuki Ito is directing it.

 

[yeah_93]

I hope that FFXVI has not even a sand grain of user feedback to influence its creation, especially if Hiroyuki Ito is directing it.

Oh my God not this again.

 

[Lulcielid]

I hope that FFXVI has not even a sand grain of user feedback to influence its creation, especially if Hiroyuki Ito is directing it.

Is that you... maybe i´m being paranoid, that comment... the resemblance is uncanny.

In response to @Nova_Sommus comment (well not actually his, but he shares it someone else), FFXV feedback is no different from what any reviewer/player has said about previous FFgames, which at the end of the day is still a feedback, one that very likely where kept in mind while developing FF [anything pre XV], though this also applies for lots of franchise games.

Since when asking for opinions = non visionary ? Because trusting instints alone is not something smart as well as it does not guarantee good things. Also i do not think that the guys that made VI and VII (for example) made those games completely blind without hearing the players reviews(AKA feedback) of FFI-V.

 

[Nova_Somnus]

FFXV feedback is no different from what any reviewer/player has said about previous FFgames, which at the end of the day is still a feedback, one that very likely where kept in mind while developing FF [anything pre XV], though this also applies for lots of franchise games.

That doesn't apply to FF, homie. Mainline FF games are made by different teams concurrently, therefore meaning feedback for one game won't influence the one that follows it. Review feedback for FF8 didn't influence FF9, as they were both made at the same time. Feedback only applies for direct sequels such as 10-2 and 13-2, as they made by the same team.

Since when asking for opinions = non visionary ? Because trusting instints alone is not something smart as well as it does not guarantee good things. Also i do not think that the guys that made VI and VII (for example) made those games completely blind without hearing the players reviews(AKA feedback) of FFI-V.

Actually, FF1 through to FF8 were made with on zero influence of feedback. FF9 and FF10 were the only FF games that were conceived based on feedback. For FF9, Sakaguchi wanted to make a Medieval FF, as people in Japan said they didn't like the heavy Sci-Fi of FF7 and wanted a Medieval world again, and he already knew Kitase was planning to make FF8 a continuation of the Sci-Fi direction established in FF7. For FF10, Kitase wanted to show people in Japan that complained about wanting Medieval that "Fantasy" can exist in many different forms. He wanted to expand their definition of the term, so he chose to make FF10 based on South East Asia.

For every FF game, there's never been feedback that influenced its creation as much as Tabata is doing with FF15. Not even a FF spin-off has ever been made with this much fan feedback. It just gives off the impression that Tabata lacks vision and can't direct a AAA, home console game.

 

[LeonBlade]

To answer the OP, I will just repost a comment a user made on an article on the official Square Enix blog about a London FFXV community event where Tabata personally asked 16 fans what they want from FFXV. I 100% agree with the user's views on the matter. Long story short: this pursuit for feedback is just proving that Tabata is an incompetent director of AAA, home console games.

I'm just going to be honest. IMO, hosting an event like this with only 16 people "representing" the FF fanase is absolutely pointless. The FF fanbase is one of the most divided and polarised fandoms in entertainment history. One person's fave FF could be another person's most hated. Therefore, there's no way 16 people would be able to represent what the entire fanbase thinks. Every individual has their own fave FF, and even the top 3 FF games differ widely amongst FF players. If Tabata-san is attempting to cater to every FF fan with FFXV, he's wasting his time. The fanbase is too divided at this point. Heck, I already know people IRL who have already written off the game due to the "boyband" party.

Again, I hate to sound pessimistic on this matter, but all this pursuit for user feedback on FFXV is more damaging than helpful. FFVI and FFVII, two of the most beloved FF games, never relied on user feedback and surveys during their creation. The teams behind them made what they wanted to make and put it out to the masses. The same can be said for FFIX and FFX, which are also both really popular FF games. FFXII isn't as popular, but it also never relied on user feedback during development. The game never resonated with some FF fans, but it still went on to create an entire JRPG sub-genre due to games like Xenoblade following in its footsteps.

My point is a simple one. This seemingly unrelenting pursuit for user feedback and surveys to shape FFXV needs to either stop outright or be greatly toned down. With the way Tabata-san is directing this game, I can honestly say he's not a visionary director. A visionary director would never rely on feedback to shape any part of their work. They'd stick to their guns and trust their own instinct with what they want to make and then put it out and let people judge it. I'm not seeing that at all with Tabata-san, which is a shame, as he rolled like this when directing Type-0. I get the impression that he's selling out with FFXV. He's tailoring his work to the public in pursuit of making it the best selling FF ever. That's no different to a musician selling out their artistic integrity for more sales. A big shame if I ever saw one.

I hope that FFXVI has not even a sand grain of user feedback to influence its creation, especially if Hiroyuki Ito is directing it.

Hi, 1Truth.

 

[Sora96]

Oh my God not this again.

Don't look at the staff debate....