Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

[Bazztek]

but it seems there was a completed scenario judging by what he stated in 2010

Refer to my post here https://www.mognetcentral.com/threads/final-fantasy-xv-general-news-thread.3288/page-990#post-70532

lol wait
Just did some digging and looks like the only places from 2010 that mention that Versus had "completed" its script is an English forum post trying to translate an article from Dengeki Playstation Vol.474.

Sites like Nova Crystallis and Gematsu linked back to a post on FF-XIII.net which sources a post on its forums from an "Oji" who supposedly translated Nomura's comments from Dengeki Playstation Vol.474.

https://gematsu.com/2010/06/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-scenario-complete-confirms-dengeki
http://www.novacrystallis.com/2010/06/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-scenario-and-designs-complete/

Both of them source this


https://web.archive.org/web/2010070...le&article=Versus-in-Dengeki-Playstation--555

Which sources this forum post


https://web.archive.org/web/2010070...-Fantasy-Versus-XIII-News&p=186370&viewfull=1


However ff-reunion.net has the full Dengeki Playstation Vol.474 Nomura interview about Versus and it says nothing about the scenario/story/script for Versus being complete at all.

http://www.ff-reunion.net/blog/2010/06/25/ffv13_dengeki_nomura_interview/

 

[358/2 Belts]

Refer to my post here https://www.mognetcentral.com/threads/final-fantasy-xv-general-news-thread.3288/page-990#post-70532

Refer to my post here https://www.mognetcentral.com/threads/final-fantasy-xv-general-news-thread.3288/page-990#post-70532

There's also a famitsu interview from 2010 that's very similar to the one you sourced, are they drawing from the same source maybe? It's strange that so many sites reported the completion of the scenario yet there's not a mention of it in said interview. It's even on the wikipedia that it was completed in 2010. Guess that should be edited.

Still like I said, you'd think he'd have something after 6 years, even if it was rewritten to hell and back. Can't help but be curious, it's a shame we don't know more other than what's been said by Ferrari really.

 

[Ikkin]

I've discovered something interesting, a relationship between Lightning Returns and XV.

I've always wondered why the localisation of Lightning Returns went so completely off the deep end when it came to altering characterisations and butchering terminology. And I came across something; the main localisation team has the same staff as the ones who translated Final Fantasy XV. The translator/localiser for XIII and XIII-2 was Tom Slattery, who wasn't involved in Lightning Returns at all.

Sort of makes sense. And it also puts the English script for XV into more context. It's not just how the team wrote the story. It's how that particular localisation team chose to render it into English. Explains why LR's English script was so strange when compared with its predecessors.

Looks like the latest team have a penchant for inserting Abrahamic symbolism and terminology into the story.

EDIT: I don't mean the story was altered as drastically for XV, but stuff that was presented in a fairly bald fashion was touted up for the English version with pseudo-Biblical language.

Honestly, this just raises more questions.

Like, I'd totally believe that the LR localization team was responsible for the disaster that is Solara Antiquum, because both of those things share the same sort of juvenile "New Atheist" attitude.

But XV proper? Where the localization team wasn't just adding kernings and modifying characterization after the fact, but actively involved in the writers' room? How in the world did that happen? XD

The more information I get, the more it seems like the story just actively rebelled against the people writing it, converting what was meant as subversion into a very effective straight portrayal of religious concepts.

 

[Storm]

I dont see much difference between XIII games scripts... they rely heavily on metaphysical terms and emotional dialogue and that same style carries on Mobius FF.

 

[Ikkin]

I dont see much difference between XIII games scripts... they rely heavily on metaphysical terms and emotional dialogue and that same style carries on Mobius FF.

With regards to Lightning Returns, the difference is that the localizers went out of their way to associate Bhunivelze with the Judeo-Christian God in ways that didn't actually exist within the original script, which was... strange. >_>;

 

[SonOfEtro]

I dont see much difference between XIII games scripts... they rely heavily on metaphysical terms and emotional dialogue and that same style carries on Mobius FF.

It does as Ikkin mentioned above. It also completely destroys one of the key lore concepts; that "soul" and "heart" are two different things, as in nearly every instance the term "soul" is always used. In the original lore, crystalline souls are eternal, but humans are given individuality by transient "hearts" made from Chaos. This lore bit is almost completely missing from the localized script. I barely understood what Bhunivelze was up to until I saw the Japanese translations floating around. In XIII-2, "heart" was localized as "spirit", but it was still distinct from "soul".

 

[Ikkin]

It does as Ikkin mentioned above. It also completely destroys one of the key lore concepts; that "soul" and "heart" are two different things, as in nearly every instance the term "soul" is always used. In the original lore, crystalline souls are eternal, but humans are given individuality by transient "hearts" made from Chaos. This lore bit is almost completely missing from the localized script. I barely understood what Bhunivelze was up to until I saw the Japanese translations floating around. In XIII-2, "heart" was localized as "spirit", but it was still distinct from "soul".

The weirdest thing about that translation issue is that the metaphysics are an almost-perfect replica of KH's:

"3 elements combine to create life: a heart, a soul, and a body. But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost? When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves? A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears in the darkness."

KH, of course, is far less interested in souls than in hearts, but it still should have provided a consistent model for LR's translators to follow.

...then again, perhaps the reason why KH didn't struggle as much was because it was easier to merge the soul and the body to produce a comfortable body/heart sort of dualism. Once you have a separate metaphysical thing that reincarnates but doesn't include any of the things that define the soul in the standard Cartesian sense, things get weird fast for Westerners. XD;

 

[358/2 Belts]

The weirdest thing about that translation issue is that the metaphysics are an almost-perfect replica of KH's:

"3 elements combine to create life: a heart, a soul, and a body. But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost? When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves? A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears in the darkness."

KH, of course, is far less interested in souls than in hearts, but it still should have provided a consistent model for LR's translators to follow.

...then again, perhaps the reason why KH didn't struggle as much was because it was easier to merge the soul and the body to produce a comfortable body/heart sort of dualism. Once you have a separate metaphysical thing that reincarnates but doesn't include any of the things that define the soul in the standard Cartesian sense, things get weird fast for Westerners. XD;

Doesn't the soul reside inside the heart in FNC lore? So when the body and heart expire, their souls return to Etro and she can either make them a new heart from the chaos and reincarnate them, or let their souls pass on into the unseen realm to be at peace. It is somewhat similar to KH, where heart, soul and body all make up a person's being.

 

[Ikkin]

Doesn't the soul reside inside the heart in FNC lore? So when the body and heart expire, their souls return to Etro and she can either make them a new heart from the chaos and reincarnate them, or let their souls pass on into the unseen realm to be at peace. It is somewhat similar to KH, where heart, soul and body all make up a person's being.

Yes, but that's part of what could make it a lot more confusing to Westerners than KH's take on the same tripartite split.

Basically, in KH, the body and soul must remain together or perish, while it's possible to separate the heart from the body/soul pair without causing a person's death. Since the body and soul must remain together, it's easy enough to interpret the soul as a mere animating principle that distinguishes a living body from a dead one and the heart as otherwise identical to the Cartesian soul (which can likewise survive apart from its body). Hearts matter because they impute identity; souls matter because they bring the body to life.

Associating the soul's animating principle with the heart rather than the body wouldn't cause any problems in and of itself, but making it a reincarnating element that animates the heart certainly complicates matters. Once something like that is introduced, the Western mind automatically starts to wonder, "Why does the heart need an animating principle when it's so much like the Cartesian soul? Why should such an animating principle reincarnate, and why would it even matter if it did?" Hearts still matter because they impute identity, but souls appear to serve no purpose apart from facilitating reincarnation, and they themselves are so generic that it's unclear why anyone ought to care about said reincarnation.

Thinking about it a bit more, I suspect that the localization team's thought process might have been something like, "Why would our audience even care about these weird soul-things that lack everything that make the person whose souls they were that person? Once the heart is gone, the individual is gone, and the individual is the only thing that matters in the West." Of course, without the heart/soul distinction, the lore becomes a complete disaster, but I can certainly understand how the localization team could throw up their hands in defeat and sacrifice lore coherence for the sake of avoiding the Big Bad's plan seeming like a giant Nothingburger.

 

[358/2 Belts]

Yes, but that's part of what could make it a lot more confusing to Westerners than KH's take on the same tripartite split.

Basically, in KH, the body and soul must remain together or perish, while it's possible to separate the heart from the body/soul pair without causing a person's death. Since the body and soul must remain together, it's easy enough to interpret the soul as a mere animating principle that distinguishes a living body from a dead one and the heart as otherwise identical to the Cartesian soul (which can likewise survive apart from its body). Hearts matter because they impute identity; souls matter because they bring the body to life.

Associating the soul's animating principle with the heart rather than the body wouldn't cause any problems in and of itself, but making it a reincarnating element that animates the heart certainly complicates matters. Once something like that is introduced, the Western mind automatically starts to wonder, "Why does the heart need an animating principle when it's so much like the Cartesian soul? Why should such an animating principle reincarnate, and why would it even matter if it did?" Hearts still matter because they impute identity, but souls appear to serve no purpose apart from facilitating reincarnation, and they themselves are so generic that it's unclear why anyone ought to care about said reincarnation.

Thinking about it a bit more, I suspect that the localization team's thought process might have been something like, "Why would our audience even care about these weird soul-things that lack everything that make the person whose souls they were that person? Once the heart is gone, the individual is gone, and the individual is the only thing that matters in the West." Of course, without the heart/soul distinction, the lore becomes a complete disaster, but I can certainly understand how the localization team could throw up their hands in defeat and sacrifice lore coherence for the sake of avoiding the Big Bad's plan seeming like a giant Nothingburger.

It seems like the localization has been off for most of the recent Final Fantasy/Kingdom Hearts games, at least LR, XV and KH3. Certain lines that changed the characters personality in English, but even moreso the plot details, the XV dub seems to favor vague and mysterious dialogue over the more direct expository style presented in the German localization. Things like Ardyn theorising that the Starscourge originated from the meteor of the six is completely missing in the English version. And his surname Izunia was said to be his original name before his family were dubbed Lucis Caelum by the Gods and given the Crystal. Yet all we get in English is "You'll never guess who Izunia was" which is super vague and is never addressed in the story. There are other ones too, character and plot related, overall it's a very wishy washy translation and it didn't help considering when the game first launched, lore was sparse and we didn't have the dossiers back then either.

And on the subject of Kingdom Hearts, 3 also has been reported to have numerous errors in it's localization, maybe because they were moving quickly to ensure a simultaneous global release, I don't know for sure. But again, certain crucial character interactions that came late in the story were botched or interpreted completely different to the Japanese version.

Spoiler: Kingdom Hearts 3 Spoilers

Two major examples would be Vanitas' final moments in the Keyblade Graveyard, which was completely different in Japanese. And secondly another small detail that was lost is Eraqus calling Terra a master, but in the English version he just says "Terra, take care of them for me" but that one word would've meant so much.

Lightning Returns probably had it worst though, they omit massive swaths of Bhunivelze's plan and put a very western spin on it. I don't even think him speaking through Hope or using him is addressed in the English version? It's pretty terrible for so many important details to be left out at the climax, not mentioning the other stuff. FNC already has a lot going on with it's lore, you don't need people that aren't staying faithful to the material translating it. Square needs to sort out their localization game, at least for Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Ikkin]

It seems like the localization has been off for most of the recent Final Fantasy/Kingdom Hearts games, at least LR, XV and KH3. Certain lines that changed the characters personality in English, but even moreso the plot details, the XV dub seems to favor vague and mysterious dialogue over the more direct expository style presented in the German localization. Things like Ardyn theorising that the Starscourge originated from the meteor of the six is completely missing in the English version. And his surname Izunia was said to be his original name before his family were dubbed Lucis Caelum by the Gods and given the Crystal. Yet all we get in English is "You'll never guess who Izunia was" which is super vague and is never addressed in the story. There are other ones too, character and plot related, overall it's a very wishy washy translation and it didn't help considering when the game first launched, lore was sparse and we didn't have the dossiers back then either.

To be fair to the English localization of FFXV, a lot of the stuff that was included in the German localization but not the English one wasn't in the Japanese script either.

I know for a fact that Ardyn theorizing that the Starscourge originated from the Meteor and Ardyn explaining that Izunia was his original surname were German (and eventually French, in the case of the latter) additions rather than direct translations from Japanese. The Japanese version of "You'll never guess who Izunia was," in particular, was "Ah, Izunia, whose name was that--?" which is probably why Episode Ardyn felt free to have the provenance of the name be a mystery to Ardyn himself. (The English version took Ardyn's musing as mockery, which isn't too far afield, and doesn't really mess anything up too badly, because Ardyn is exactly the sort of person who would use something he himself didn't know to taunt Noct.) Ardyn's Japanese explanation of the Starscourge, for what it's worth, is "An infectious disease spread without a cure. It’s caused by parasites. Anyone affected by the disease was considered a monster and would be exterminated."

In light of that, I would argue that the German localization took a few too many risks while the English localization mostly took it safe and limited itself to what was revealed in the Japanese version. And, whether the English localization was perfectly accurate or not with regards to characterization, it certainly was good at maintaining internal consistency.

And on the subject of Kingdom Hearts, 3 also has been reported to have numerous errors in it's localization, maybe because they were moving quickly to ensure a simultaneous global release, I don't know for sure. But again, certain crucial character interactions that came late in the story were botched or interpreted completely different to the Japanese version.

Spoiler: Kingdom Hearts 3 Spoilers

Two major examples would be Vanitas' final moments in the Keyblade Graveyard, which was completely different in Japanese. And secondly another small detail that was lost is Eraqus calling Terra a master, but in the English version he just says "Terra, take care of them for me" but that one word would've meant so much.

This, on the other hand, seems like a disaster. >_<

Spoiler

People were already complaining about Eraqus telling Terra to take care of Aqua, since she's fully capable of taking care of herself... but he was supposed to tell Terra that he had finally become a master instead?! That's unforgivably sloppy. >_<

What did Vanitas say in his final moments in Japanese?

Lightning Returns probably had it worst though, they omit massive swaths of Bhunivelze's plan and put a very western spin on it. I don't even think him speaking through Hope or using him is addressed in the English version? It's pretty terrible for so many important details to be left out at the climax, not mentioning the other stuff. FNC already has a lot going on with it's lore, you don't need people that aren't staying faithful to the material translating it. Square needs to sort out their localization game, at least for Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts.

Yeah, the Lightning Returns localization seems even more lacking than FFVII's, and that one was done in two weeks using an Excel spreadsheet. >_>;

 

[andrzejp90]

Honestly, this just raises more questions.

Like, I'd totally believe that the LR localization team was responsible for the disaster that is Solara Antiquum, because both of those things share the same sort of juvenile "New Atheist" attitude.

But XV proper? Where the localization team wasn't just adding kernings and modifying characterization after the fact, but actively involved in the writers' room? How in the world did that happen? XD

The more information I get, the more it seems like the story just actively rebelled against the people writing it, converting what was meant as subversion into a very effective straight portrayal of religious concepts.

I can't help but feel that this is exactly the reason you can't seem to accept the added moral ambiguity of bahamut - it would break the straightforward Christian interpretation you seem to hold - isn't it the case? Truth is, along with the christian symbolism, the game has a whole lot of gnostic undertones - humans ascending as gods (noctis wasn't a god born as human - he was a human who by sacrifice became one, along with Luna), the track name"apocalypsis aquarius" also should ring a bell. And there's more.

 

[Ikkin]

I can't help but feel that this is exactly the reason you can't seem to accept the added moral ambiguity of bahamut - it would break the straightforward Christian interpretation you seem to hold - isn't it the case? Truth is, along with the christian symbolism, the game has a whole lot of gnostic undertones - humans ascending as gods (noctis wasn't a god born as human - he was a human who by sacrifice became one, along with Luna), the track name"apocalypsis aquarius" also should ring a bell. And there's more.

Well, it's not just about breaking the symbolism, but that in breaking said symbolism, it broke its internal coherence.

And I disagree that FFXV proper has any meaningful Gnostic undertones. Gnosticism's two big things are a disdain for matter and the need to overthrow a false tyrant god. FFXV, in contrast, displays a clear love for the physical world and has no interest in rebelling against tyrant gods (at least in canon).

The concept of divinization through participation in the divine caritas (i.e. self-sacrificial love) by means of martyrdom is by no means foreign to Christianity (though it might seem bizarre to Protestants, heh), and it's pretty clear that the "Aquarius" in "Apocalypsis Aquarius" is about water rather than anything particularly New Agey. The Gnostic take on humans ascending to be like gods, in fact, is based on the attainment of secret knowledge (aka "gnosis") rather than loving obedience to the divine will, so it wouldn't be a good comparison to make even in the absence of Christian alternatives.

 

[Loganight]

I appreciate the growth that we see in Noctis as a character as he grows and evolves to accept the story's central theme of duty, sacrifice, and the things that are passed on to us. It's very sins of the father vibes and I love that kind of story. It's what made FFXV's narrative so powerful for me. Making it so that which was inherited has no weight by making Bahamut a crazed nonsensical villain kind of destroys the weight of the original story's themes. It even kind of takes weight away from Ardyn's plight because the throne that was stolen from him was just a disposable playing piece in Bahamut's game the whole time. I think that Noctis's defeat of the gods within XV proper is more of a trial to test his worthiness before receiving the power of Providence than it is him breaking the chains of fate and becoming a god in his own right. Centering DoTF around that theme changes that perception of the original story for the worse in my opinion. If any of you dig that kind of story more than I'm at least happy that it exists for you!

 

[Ikkin]

I appreciate the growth that we see in Noctis as a character as he grows and evolves to accept the story's central theme of duty, sacrifice, and the things that are passed on to us. It's very sins of the father vibes and I love that kind of story. It's what made FFXV's narrative so powerful for me. Making it so that which was inherited has no weight by making Bahamut a crazed nonsensical villain kind of destroys the weight of the original story's themes. It even kind of takes weight away from Ardyn's plight because the throne that was stolen from him was just a disposable playing piece in Bahamut's game the whole time. I think that Noctis's defeat of the gods within XV proper is more of a trial to test his worthiness before receiving the power of Providence than it is him breaking the chains of fate and becoming a god in his own right. Centering DoTF around that theme changes that perception of the original story for the worse in my opinion. If any of you dig that kind of story more than I'm at least happy that it exists for you!

Yeah -- for all I talk about the religious symbolism in FFXV, those aspects exist primarily in service to the game's themes of maturity* and accepting responsibility for things that one has the power to change (even when those things weren't one's own fault). And that's the sort of lesson that everyone could stand to be reminded of every now and then.

Making Bahamut evil messes that up not just by changing the game's implied understanding of maturity but by essentially discarding that theme altogether in favor of essentially glorifying selfishness. Given how problematic that is, I'm not sure I can even be happy that it exists for the people who like it. =/

* In fact, I think the best way to explain the connection is to say that FFXV's view of maturity is heavily informed by the religious worldview that said symbolism represents: maturity is conformity to the divine will and the willingness to lay one's life down out of love for the other.

 

[ArbyWorks]

I've an idea that the blood moon from EP: Duscae was an archaic weather setting from when they had the plans to insert the grander DotF content into the main narrative, as the moon engorges to a size that allows for an object like the citadel to sit in front of it and mimic the artwork from the Big Bang.


In Dawn of the Future, Bahamut raises the Citadel up to the sky so that humans can't reach the crystal and threaten his terraflare. IT all ends with the Crystal shattering and absorbing the darkness in the world, which sounds awfully like the Big Bang artwork.

 

[ash]

I've an idea that the blood moon from EP: Duscae was an archaic weather setting from when they had the plans to insert the grander DotF content into the main narrative, as the moon engorges to a size that allows for an object like the citadel to sit in front of it and mimic the artwork from the Big Bang.

View attachment 1173
In Dawn of the Future, Bahamut raises the Citadel up to the sky so that humans can't reach the crystal and threaten his terraflare. IT all ends with the Crystal shattering and absorbing the darkness in the world, which sounds awfully like the Big Bang artwork.

It's so hard to accept all of this after watching the cutscenes in the narrative of the game they have released as canon. I feel so in denial and I can't even watch them anymore knowing what's in DotF. Is that weird? I almost feel guilty for some reason.

 

[ArbyWorks]

It's so hard to accept all of this after watching the cutscenes in the narrative of the game they have released as canon. I feel so in denial and I can't even watch them anymore knowing what's in DotF. Is that weird? I almost feel guilty for some reason.

As it stands, the main game is the alternate events; Noct ponders what happens if he fulfills his destiny and sees how the main game plays out. DotF is the true ending, but because they couldn't flesh it out, had to trim it and make sure what they did have was strong on its own. EP: Noct even starts off with a scene like the original Versus trailer where he's fighting Niflheim soldiers.

 

[Ikkin]

As it stands, the main game is the alternate events; Noct ponders what happens if he fulfills his destiny and sees how the main game plays out. DotF is the true ending, but because they couldn't flesh it out, had to trim it and make sure what they did have was strong on its own. EP: Noct even starts off with a scene like the original Versus trailer where he's fighting Niflheim soldiers.

The idea that the game that released is the AU and the novel that released later is the real canon is utterly absurd in every sense, and isn't even consistent with what the people responsible for the novel have said.

The novel is best understood as a completely separate canon, a la the alternate canons that appear in comic books sometimes ("What if Superman grew up in the USSR?").

 

[ArbyWorks]

The idea that the game that released is the AU and the novel that released later is the real canon is utterly absurd in every sense, and isn't even consistent with what the people responsible for the novel have said.

The novel is best understood as a completely separate canon, a la the alternate canons that appear in comic books sometimes ("What if Superman grew up in the USSR?").

It's more like it was the original plan, scaled back slowly until we got the base game, and then they sought to do more with the stuff they cut than originally planned. Ambition trimmed down then over-ambition flat-out cancelled.